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Thread: when Dreamcast was released the PS1 had less than 50M units sold

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    Default Did you know ? when Dreamcast was released the PS1 had less than 50M units sold

    in October 2001 was almost 89M of PS1 shipped

    from Dreamcast launch to the launch of Sonic adventure 2
    34M PS1 were sold.

    in the period when the dreamcast was discontinued, that was the period when the PS1 flourished as you see processing power was never the Dreamcast issue.

    another interesting fact is that the PS1 shares some of its best selling games with the Dreamcast but sales of these games on the Dreamcast are significantly lower

    the price difference between PS1 and Dreamcast wasn't even big it was something like the price of a game, very little and people still preferred to play on an old gen console, the question is why ?

    tomb raider 4 sold almost 5M on PS1 less than 1M on Dreamcast
    RE3 almost simultaneous release 3,5M on PS1 less than 1M on Dreamcast
    Tony hawk 2 same thing, Dino Crisis, spiderman, soul reaver

    It's natural that they sell more on the PS1 but Sega should have made an effort to get these important games to be associated with the Dreamcast.

    Another factor to take into account were the exclusives, in the public's perception games like GT2, FF8, DQ7, Metal Gear, Crash team racing, Spyro 2 and Driver moved much more consoles than games Sonic Aventure 1 and Crazy Taxi could do. , the other Dreamcast games at the time were excellent but couldn't move consoles, Soul Calibur sold much less than it should since this game oozes quality.

    Sony offers PS2 backwards compatibility with the PS1, this created in people's minds the idea that they could keep buying PS1 because the day they migrated to PS2 they could take their favorite games with them.

    as you can see, playing DVD was never the Dreamcast issue. Nothing could stop this console from selling too many units, as long as it had more commercial games associated with it.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 09-24-2021 at 11:30 PM.

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    hell, when Dreamcast was released the N64 had something like 24M units sold on March 31, 2001 N64 reached the limit with 32M units sold, almost the same as Dreamcast in period no DVD, no backwards compatibility promise, no crisp graphics, that's the power of four games Majora's Mask, DK64, Perfect Dark and Conker.

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    The big factor was piracy on the PS which exploded the sales of the system, but no one factors that in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The big factor was piracy on the PS which exploded the sales of the system, but no one factors that in.
    A factor, sure, but big factor? What's a big factor to you? 1-3%? There's a reason why no one factors that in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The big factor was piracy on the PS which exploded the sales of the system, but no one factors that in.
    sincerely I disagree, I mean piracy started on the Dreamcast in the year 2000 that year the Dreamcast sold at levels close to the N64, the Sega Saturn itself had piracy as well and at the same time as the PS1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    in October 2001 was almost 89M of PS1 shipped

    from Dreamcast launch to the launch of Sonic adventure 2
    34M PS1 were sold.

    in the period when the dreamcast was discontinued, that was the period when the PS1 flourished as you see processing power was never the Dreamcast issue.

    another interesting fact is that the PS1 shares some of its best selling games with the Dreamcast but sales of these games on the Dreamcast are significantly lower

    the price difference between PS1 and Dreamcast wasn't even big it was something like the price of a game, very little and people still preferred to play on an old gen console, the question is why ?

    tomb raider 4 sold almost 5M on PS1 less than 1M on Dreamcast
    RE3 almost simultaneous release 3,5M on PS1 less than 1M on Dreamcast
    Tony hawk 2 same thing, Dino Crisis, spiderman, soul reaver

    It's natural that they sell more on the PS1 but Sega should have made an effort to get these important games to be associated with the Dreamcast.

    Another factor to take into account were the exclusives, in the public's perception games like GT2, FF8, DQ7, Metal Gear, Crash team racing, Spyro 2 and Driver moved much more consoles than games Sonic Aventure 1 and Crazy Taxi could do. , the other Dreamcast games at the time were excellent but couldn't move consoles, Soul Calibur sold much less than it should since this game oozes quality.

    Sony offers PS2 backwards compatibility with the PS1, this created in people's minds the idea that they could keep buying PS1 because the day they migrated to PS2 they could take their favorite games with them.

    as you can see, playing DVD was never the Dreamcast issue. Nothing could stop this console from selling too many units, as long as it had more commercial games associated with it.

    Hasn't the topic of Dreamcast's failure been beaten to death on here? There's really nothing else to analyze. Sega's sole hope against Sony was that the Dreamcast would make the PS1 look so decrepit and old that it would convince sufficient numbers of PS1 owners to pick up a Dreamcast and then they could try to repeat what they did with the Genesis vs the NES, hoping of course that Sony would be like Nintendo and sit on their asses getting fat and rich off the old system and not launch a competing system for at least a year or so, thus giving Sega a chance to build up the install base of Dreamcasts. Of course that didn't happen and Sony announced the PS2 on March 1st 1999 and what followed was the insane levels of hype for PS2 leading up to its launch a year later and basically killed any hope of Dreamcast getting any traction. People blame the DVD like it would of made a big difference, but it was the huge strength of the Playstation brand and the absolutely insane levels of hype for the PS2. ZOMG EMOTION ENGINEEE!!!!!!1111111 and ZOMG TOY STORY GRAPHIXXXXX!!!!1111 etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    It's natural that they sell more on the PS1 but Sega should have made an effort to get these important games to be associated with the Dreamcast.
    What do you expect Sega to do to change this? Why would Publishers ignore the gigantic userbase of the PS1 and presumably go exclusive to Dreamcast? On one hand the publisher have a machine in the PS1 that has sold 10s of millions of machines and a huge thriving market versus a new system with a fraction of the machines sold and backed by a company whose 2 previous products "failed". What do you expect Sega to have done?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    Hasn't the topic of Dreamcast's failure been beaten to death on here? There's really nothing else to analyze.
    I believe that there is always room for analysis, it is also good for people to see different viewpoints and thus increase their own vision and abandon any prejudice or jargon.

    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    People blame the DVD like it would of made a big difference, but it was the huge strength of the Playstation brand and the absolutely insane levels of hype for the PS2. ZOMG EMOTION ENGINEEE!!!!!!1111111 and ZOMG TOY STORY GRAPHIXXXXX!!!!1111 etc.
    if we look more closely, they are only seeing the tip of the ice berg.

    the DVD thesis fails to explain why the PS1 (cd-rom) sells 50M consoles after the Dreamcast is released or N64 (cart) having sold almost the same number of units as the Dreamcast, being both in the same period. It can at most explain the roughly 24M PS2 sold between March 2000 and November 2001, when the nextgen Xbox and Gamecube consoles finally hit stores.
    We are talking about a total of 82M consoles sold if we add PS1, N64, DC and PS2 during the period of September 1999 and November 2001. But from this figure the Dreamcast only managed to capitalize just 9M or 12% of all consoles sold. this is the big question.

    In other words, Sega people weren't crazy, there really was a window of opportunity. Finding out why it went wrong is the reason for bringing this issue back to the forefront.

    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post

    What do you expect Sega to do to change this? Why would Publishers ignore the gigantic userbase of the PS1 and presumably go exclusive to Dreamcast? What do you expect Sega to have done?
    I follow the same view as youtuber Sega Lord X, the thesis he applies to Saturn in this video, in my opinion, is also valid for the Dreamcast

    https://youtu.be/_7Uzb2kJdB4

    answering the questions

    first, I want to make it clear that Sega would never do what I'm going to write because they were stuck in rigid, structural corporate thinking.

    Sega used its equipment as a means of selling games in the sense that the hardware would drive the software.

    Nintendo on the other hand believed that it was the game that should sell the console.

    second: the famous games

    as good as the Dreamcast games were, at the time it was facing games like: DK64, Zelda Majoras Mask, Driver 1 in the next year Driver 2, FF8 after FF9, Spyro 2 after Spyro 3 ect

    what represented a DK64? it was just the 3D transition (good or not) of one of Snes' best selling games, a famous IP.
    FF8 same thing was the sequel of one of the best selling PS1 games. FF7.
    Driver, this was a pleasant surprise and it sold a lot but next year they release Driver 2 to take advantage of the moment increasing sales.

    third: Sega should have done the following:

    1- made a better Virtua fighter 3, not graphically, but a game with many extra modes, trial mode, theater mode, that wasn't asking too much since Fighter Megamix came before and has a lot of extras. VF2 was Saturn's best-selling game and Virtua Fighter 3 should have taken advantage of it while fighting games were at their peak, they didn't, they preferred to spend efforts on Shenmue a new and devoid of fame IP. they put the eggs in the wrong bowl.

    2- they should have made Street of Rage for Dreamcast, SOR was played easily by 4M people no matter how bad the game was in DC, people would buy DC for it just by name.
    They should have accelerated Sonic 2 to come out in 2000 Sonic 1 was the system selling and Sonic had commercial strength, you see on Ps1 when an IP exploded Sony accelerated the sequel, Crash Bandicoot is a 1996 game, Crash 2 1997, Driver 1999 , Driver 2 came out in 2000 on ps2 they kept the philosophy GTA 3 out in 2001, in 2002 they made GTA Vice City, it shows us that the faster a sequel was made , more consoles it moves.

    3- finally, Sega didn't need to make any multiplat as exclusive, ithey needed to associate the game with the Dreamcast, this task was simple, it was enough to allocate a little of the marketing budget and make a campaign, RE3 released almost simultaneously nobody associates this game with Dreamcast, the same mistake was made with other multiplats.

    sorry for the wall
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 09-25-2021 at 01:54 AM. Reason: grammatical errors

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    sincerely I disagree, I mean piracy started on the Dreamcast in the year 2000 that year the Dreamcast sold at levels close to the N64, the Sega Saturn itself had piracy as well and at the same time as the PS1.
    The DC didn't have the games that the masses wanted to play sadly. The PS had games coming out of it's ears

    The OG Xbox had rampant Piracy, but SONY was the Hardware the masses wanted, that was the difference and the PS was so easy and simple to mod too
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    Donít forget that SONY PSX was super hip at
    The time. Everyone loved it. Sony could do no wrong.
    The Dreamcast was miles ahead of the psx but as soon as sony Announced the PS2 with itís emotion engine. The press was all about sucking Sony cuck. The system was so overhyped it was insane. Remember those launch titles? Gradius 3 and Fantavision? Wtf . Still people wanted nothing else then hot sony cummmm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The DC didn't have the games that the masses wanted to play sadly. The PS had games coming out of it's ears
    Sega Lord X's thesis is based on this, that games had no commercial appeal, but I prefer to add one more extra point.

    According to Peter Moore, Dreamcast sales were very bad in 2000, below expectations (this is a fact) and Sega was bleeding a lot of money. it is also true that at least for me the Dreamcast games in that year were very good: RE CV, Grandia 2, Marvel vs Capcom 2 (according to my observations in internet lists, this is almost always the most remembered Dreamcast game) skies of arcadia, MSR, Le mans, Tomb raider, Soul reaver, dead or alive 2 all cool games. If Dreamcast sales were so bad, this means that the Dreamcast was seen as unnecessary by the masses. Peter Moore then met with Japanese executives and suggested that the Dreamcast plug be pulled, as he said. the Dreamcast was already dead in the public's mind. He just made it official.

    If this last sentence is true then a prejudice was created and thus the games did not have time or conditions to show whether they had commercial appeal or not
    because apparently the Playstation marketing was so massive than induced the creation of this prejudice.

    on the other hand, those 2000 Dreamcast games, some of them, had PS2 and GC versions and didn't get substantial sales figures (grandia 2, mvsc 2, skies of arcadia, le mans, quake 3). Dead or alive 2 didn't reach 1M on ps2 even on a 24M basis (first two years of the platform) Tekken Tag managed to sell almost 3M, Dark cloud, Midnight club reached 1M, SSX (EA) had good sales too while MSR, Skies of arcadia, Grandia 2, Doa 2 don't .

    if we test the thesis, we see that it is valid but not absolute.

    Resident evil CV and Crazy Taxi on PS2 sold around the same than Dreamcast version, Dreamcast had about 7 games that surpassed 1M. Sonic 1 with almost 2,5M, Crazy taxi with 1.8M shenmue, nfl 2k1, NFL 2k and RECV with a just over 1M each, there is controversy but apparently Soul Calibur 1 hit 1M. Sonic 2 on the dreamcast sold around 600k but when it was released later on the GC it sold over 1.7M being the 14th on the list of 35 GCN games that surpassed 1M.

    If we carry out an uncompromised analysis of these data, we preliminarily conclude that:

    - 2D games became niche after 1998 hardly reached a million on just one platform. That's explain the mvsc 2 and cap vs snk 1 flop. Even on ps1 whose base was huge only 4 games in 2D break this barrier and all were released before 1999.

    - 3D Fighting games lost relevance, Tekken sold well as it is a famous game but there is evidence to drop compared to the previous game while games like Metal Gear, FFX and GT3 had huge sales.

    - It is very likely that whoever bought the Dreamcast also had the PS1 and used the PS1 as their main platform. this may explain why exclusive games sell more than others.

    - 2001 games as headhunter, shnemue 2 and sonic 2 sold poorly due to restricted release and marketing, perhaps due to the idea that it wasn't worth buying a new game for a discontinued console. Plus a strong predatory piracy on it than stole sales of some games.

    - Playstation marketing became more aggressive after the introduction of the PS1's slim model, best-selling console 2000, and PS2 NA launch, these two elements blinded the public not to see that Jet Set Radio , skies of arcadia, Pantasy star online, NBA 2k1, MSR, Ecco, Spawn was there.

    All games released after June. all flop.
    Due to the lack of some games on the N64, their exclusives managed to sell well in the period, Paper mario, Banjo tooi, mario party 3. Perfect dark and Majoras Mask came out before the PSone introduction, so they could do a good sales without sharing the attention.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 09-27-2021 at 02:19 AM. Reason: grammatical errors

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Sega Lord X's thesis is based on this, that games had no commercial appeal, but I prefer to add one more extra point.

    According to Peter Moore, Dreamcast sales were very bad in 2000, below expectations (this is a fact) and Sega was bleeding a lot of money. it is also true that at least for me the Dreamcast games in that year were very good: RE CV, Grandia 2, Marvel vs Capcom 2 (according to my observations in internet lists, this is almost always the most remembered Dreamcast game) skies of arcadia, MSR, Le mans, Tomb raider, Soul reaver, dead or alive 2 all cool games. If Dreamcast sales were so bad, this means that the Dreamcast was seen as unnecessary by the masses. Peter Moore then met with Japanese executives and suggested that the Dreamcast plug be pulled, as he said. the Dreamcast was already dead in the public's mind. He just made it official.
    The DC had loads of good games, but for so many people the DC was little more than a system they bought while they waited for the PS2 to launch, but more than that , all the main major 3d parties were putting their big games on the PS2 and everyone wanted the likes of MGS2. The Wii U had games that each sold millions of copies, but that doesn't change the fact that the masses weren't interested and its poor hardware sales had nothing to do with Piracy and everything to the masses not really interested and poor 3rd party support for their major titles

    The DC issue's wasn't that it wasn't selling enough games, it wasn't selling enough hardware. You could have huge piracy but if SEGA was able to sell 100 million DC's it would have had huge retail and 3rd party Royalties and if just 10% of owners bought real games, make loads on games sales too, just like SONY did

    I felt sorry for SEGA America and Mr Moore. They did such a good job, badly let down by SEGA Japan and the tools at SEGA Europe
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    I was 17 when the DC launched in the US, so most of the guys I knew bought one. After all, it was only $200, and we all had jobs or whatever. That said, while most everyone enjoyed it, the consensus opinion was that the DC was a stop-gap system until the PS2 arrived. I never experienced that feeling like there had been in the years prior during the Genesis/SNES era, where the owners were fiercely loyal to their console of choice. Perhaps that's because we were older, but while everyone seemed to like the DC and think it was cool, it was never treated as more than a fun curio while we waited for the arrival of the real next generation console. And sure enough, when the PS2 arrived, everyone dumped their DCs and moved on to the real next gen console. I recall there being stacks of DCs at the local game shops from people who had traded them in.

    It wasn't a question of the DC not having good games or anything like that. It had great games right out of the gate, and it was affordable. First party-wise, they actually had a Sonic game available at launch, and they killed it with the NFL2k games which were among the best football games that had ever been released to that point, and they ended up among the best selling games on the console. Sega did it right with the DC, arguably the best launch game lineup ever, but it was dead to rights as soon as Sony announced the PS2 was on the horizon. Hindsight and all of that, but during that 95 to 98 timeline, the massive amount of Sega eff ups coupled with the rise of the Sony Playstation becoming the hottest console in history up to that point, pretty much relegated the DC to its ultimate fate before it even came out.

    As far as the PS1 selling a ton more consoles post-DC launch, I'm not going to dig up the research, but I think Sony slashed the price on them. I certainly remember the slim PSONE models being like $50 at Best Buy, but that was likely after the PS2 was already out. If I had to guess, I'd wager that the standard PS1 was $100 or less when the DC launched. The fact that it was already an established console with hundreds of games at that point likely made it very attractive to prospective console shoppers who were finally upgrading from their Genesis or SNES in that 99-01 time frame. And like I already stated, most people I knew treated the DC as a stop-gap console in preparation for the PS2, so what better way to stop-gap for a few years than to buy a PS1 for half the price of a DC while it was still being supported with tons of new games.

    I realize most of my information is anecdotal, but I was among the target demographic for the DC at the time, as were most of my acquaintances, and these are my recollections of how things were.

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    PlayStation and the N64 were selling for around $99 in 2000. The N64 was topping the software sales for North America in 1999.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by highlandcattle View Post
    Donít forget that SONY PSX was super hip at
    The time. Everyone loved it. Sony could do no wrong.
    The Dreamcast was miles ahead of the psx but as soon as sony Announced the PS2 with itís emotion engine. The press was all about sucking Sony cuck. The system was so overhyped it was insane. Remember those launch titles? Gradius 3 and Fantavision? Wtf . Still people wanted nothing else then hot sony cummmm.
    Just like PS5. Hardly anything worth buying it but all the scalping for a massive paperweight at this point.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Just like PS5. Hardly anything worth buying it but all the scalping for a massive paperweight at this point.
    Like with the Series X there's plenty of good games for the system and we're not even a year into the console lifecycle yet. If you experienced the next-gen of gaming, I doubt you be so dismissive
    Sadly most still go on what the internet and YouTube tells them to say and think
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