Quantcast

Page 7 of 18 FirstFirst ... 3456789101117 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 264

Thread: Japan execs were upset that Kalinske was allowed to resign w/o taking blame for 32X

  1. #91
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,540
    Rep Power
    49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Why wouldn't a CPU in production for years go down in price over time? We know the SH-2 went into production in Summer of 1994 and by March of 1997 they had produced 15 Million of them for Sega to put in Saturns. So wouldn't the price per unit come down over time as production ramps up?
    CPU production prices go lower as yields increase on one particular node. However Ryzen chips are all relatively small and consequentially have extremely good yields. I don't know the particulars of that one Ryzen model you mentioned, but I doubt the yields increased so dramatically that they could sell that chip for half the price on that alone. It sounds more like they were clearing out stock.

    The SH2 was made on the same production node as far as I can tell, so the only way they'd get cheaper is either if yields become much better over time, or if Hitachi produces so much that it's worth selling them cheaper. But we don't know how many units they sold for other markets. I know the Capcom CPS3 used the same chip, but that was a huge failure. Most appliances I've inspected used the H8 line not the Super H.

    Speaking of which, the larger ASICs on the Saturn nearly all got at least one new revision, they MAY have used smaller nodes there which would improve yields and therefore cost.
    But without seeing the bill of materials (or decapping both types of chips to make sure they used smaller nodes), this is pure speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I'd imagine the Model 2 case being cheaper to produce and assemble would have lowered costs. Also in 1996 we see Memory prices pretty much nosedive. In January of 1996 RAM prices were about $30/1MB, by the end of 1996 they go to about $5/1MB. For what it's worth we see a drop of about $10/1MB from end of 1994 to the end of 1995. Granted this is going off of PC RAM prices, I'd imagine it would have applied to other markets and types of RAM and helped reduce costs. You have about 4.5MB of RAM in the Saturn, so going off of PC RAM prices of the time that would account for over $100 in cost. So if similar price drops happened with the RAM Sega was buying I'd imagine it would have made a significant dent in the cost.

    So with falling RAM prices and the other cost reductions that happened with the Model 2, I don't think the drop to $200 was as big of a hit as some people think. Sure it may have still been being sold at a loss at that price when it first launched at $200, it may not have been as big of a loss people think. At the very least I'd imagine it was no worse than the $100 loss it was at when it launched in 1994.
    I think the RAM getting cheaper would probably account for a lot more cost reduction than any other changes they made.
    However that's just going by PC prices, which mostly used SDRAM. Saturn used SDRAM and DRAM and some models even SGRAM. The older DRAM types may not have become significantly cheaper due to being legacy components.

    Bottom line: we do not know, and we are only making speculation which accounts for absolutely fuck all. We'd need several in-period price lists for the type of memory modules to be able to tell for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I'd say it still probably helped reduce costs. Combined with falling RAM prices I could again see it all starting to add up.
    Except for that interview with Hideki Sato where he said they were losing so much money, they had to cut production. Given that production was going up until 1996 and then reduced in 1997, logically he'd have to talk about 97-98, so the price reductions were clearly not enough. As far as I'm concerned, that's the closest we have to the bottom line, unless you have some documents giving per-component breakdowns of the prices from 1994 to 1998.

  2. #92
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    7,048
    Rep Power
    80

    Default

    Which is why I questioned if $380 was actually the total cost to produce the Saturn, because if that was the total cost they would technically be making money at that price. The reality is that figure is just an estimate Edge pulled out of their butt in 1995.
    I don't think EDGE Mag ever said that, maybe the sister mag did. Not that I ever felt the price of the console hurt the Saturn or indeed its poor launch lineup, they didn't help, but it never held back either the PS2 or PS3 and tbh I was amazed at how well the launch of the SEGA CD went it in America and the UK, given its insane price.

    To me, what let Saturn down was the poor management in the West (not that Japan was perfect) Leaving the 32X aside you can just look at poor management at SEGA West. SEGA spend $20 odd million dollars on the MultiMedia Studio, with I think at the time the biggest single order for SGI systems outside of ILM, only for it to make 1 good game and 1 sh8t game and nothing on the 32Bit systems, other than recording a horrible new soundtrack for Gran Chaser. STI was mess in the 32-bit era, busy messing up Sonic and basically all it did for 32-Bit gen was provide some nice art for the Japanese Team making Die Hard Arcade and making them cups of tea.

    Who was the bright spark that thought one needed a redesign of one of the best 6 button pads of all time? Most prob the one who came up with the May 1995 date Most staff inside SEGA West must have known that VF Remix was all but done, ClockworkKnight 2 was all but done and Bug was entering its final stages. It would have been far better to go in 1995 July/Aug. Then you had the Tiger/Away team produce utter sheer crap like Ghen War, Congo and then you had SEGASoft long after the FMV had died, making Mr Bones and spending $6 million dollars on The Sacred Pools (only for it not to make it out) and despite spending some millions of dollars with Joe Montana, they don't use him for a game on the Saturn and in turn, Montana looked to sue SEGA. What the hell was SEGA America doing paying an Artist to make Saturn covers and make them look utter crap, when the Japanese covers were more than good enough anyway, contrast Gurdian Heroes USA to the Japanese/Pal cover or the USA version of Astal to the Japanese one

    It was like the Muppets were running SEGA America at the time

    It wasn't much better at SEGA Europe mind. Premier Manager was a huge seller for SEGA Europe did they look to make a sequel on the Saturn, No and also didn't look to bring Let's Make a Soccer team over from Japan either. SEGA pack in an official Scart lead and didn't look to offer 60 Hz support (when 99% of Scart TV would be able to handle it). FIFA was massive on the MD and SEGA was allowed to make the 1st next gen version of it (after the 3DO) and they went for the 32X, great call that SEGA. SEGA Europe then wanted its own In-House development Studio and looked to spend a huge £7.5 million on it, only for it never to release a single game, at least MultiMedia Studio made 2 games (I guess they provided 3rd party support mind) and then SEGA Europe chose to ship Saturn games in the most god awful game cases you could wish for

    SONY must have been pissing themself's really
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  3. #93
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    1,544
    Rep Power
    73

    Default

    Here is the promised article translation.

    TLDR: The North American / European 16-bit market peaked in 1993. By 1995, the situation was dire for all software companies, including Nintendo and Sega.

    This goes a long way to explaining why Sega was desperate to release a product in North America as soon as possible, and why it would have been unfeasible to intentionally sit on their hands until 1996.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkei Sangyo Shimbun, February 29, 1996
    Sega Clears Debts of European Subsidiary, Caused by Aggressive Price War, With No Clear Strategy or Rules in Sight for Its Overseas Businesses

    Sega Enterprises is preparing to take a massive extraordinary loss brought on by the restructuring of its overseas businesses to clear debts and dispose of excess inventory. At one point, Sega’s 16-bit game console grew to surpass Nintendo’s in North America, but it is now paying the price for a rapid expansion built through the disregard for profits. Almost all Japanese game companies are reporting heavy losses in both North America and Europe due to uncontrolled underselling. Sega, which has been considered one of the favorites in the new multimedia era, is now planning drastic revisions to its home console business.

    “It’s almost like a return of the 1982 Atari Shock,” said one expert in the game industry. The Atari Shock was caused when the North American company Atari undersold a huge volume of software, and within one year of reaching its peak, the entire market collapsed.

    “The wave that brought us here was huge, but the tide has turned very quickly,” said Sega director Shunichi Nakamura in reference to the state of the 16-bit console market in Europe. At its peak in 1993, Sega’s revenue in Europe was about ¥60 billion, but now it has shrunk to one-third of that, around ¥20 billion.

    The game industry has always been characterized as unstable, but just after a large growth phase that involved a rapid increase in the number of personnel and branch offices, the degree to which the market has now shrunk has caught everyone off guard and has left the company holding a huge quantity of unsold inventory.

    Sega has not been the only company to suffer. One large software company stated, “There is not a single company that has been able to turn a profit in the European market.”

    In the fiscal period ending in March 1995, Konami took an extraordinary loss of ¥11.6 billion due to clearing out unsold inventory. During the same period, Capcom took a loss of ¥7.5 billion after writing down the value of its American subsidiary, and in the mid-year period ending in September 1995, Nintendo also took a loss of ¥9.8 billion after doing the same with its American subsidiary. This fiscal year, Sega is taking an extraordinary loss of ¥26 billion due to the downsizing of its American and European subsidiaries and due to the disposal of unsold inventory.

    Since 1991, Sega has been fighting in the North American and European markets to dethrone Nintendo via the aggressive marketing of its 16-bit game console, the Genesis (Mega Drive). Nintendo, in response, has conventionalized the practice of including multiple free games as pack-ins with the purchase of a console. As a result, although Sega has been able to top Nintendo in North America, the problem of underselling has become severe.

    Seeing 2-3 free games included with a console has become common. There were even stores in Europe that included 10 free games. Hudson, which established a branch office in London in the hopes of expanding more into Europe, postponed their expansion with the statement, “Based on the conditions of the market, there is just no way for a software company to make a profit.”

    As in Europe, the decline of the 16-bit market in North America has been very rapid. On December 26 of last year, the Wall Street Journal reported that “the previous generation of 16-bit consoles still commands the sales battle.” Nintendo and Sega’s 16-bit consoles were reported to have sold more than four times as much as Sony and Sega’s 32-bit consoles.

    “It’s true that 16-bit consoles sold quite well and we were able to sell off a good portion of our inventory, but the games did not sell at all,” said Sega director Shunichi Nakamura. The best-selling game charts for the past few weeks in North America reveal that almost all of the top titles are for Sony’s PlayStation console. Games for Nintendo’s SNES console, which has sold over 30 million units—far more than the PlayStation—have disappeared from the best-selling charts.

    “The market has been flooded with low-quality software,” said Nintendo president Hiroshi Yamauchi. Consumers in North America who want to buy 16-bit games are rapidly disappearing.

    According to Sega’s Nakamura, “Through large-scale mass production, Sega has been able to reduce the manufacturing costs of its 16-bit console to the point where we aren’t losing money on production. However, we can’t earn a profit because the software—the most essential part—is just not selling.”

    The problem now is how Sega will advance its business through its new 32-bit console, the Saturn.

    As a result of downsizing its operations, Sega has reduced its personnel in Europe from 480 people in 1993 to just 120 people now, and in North America from 900 people in 1993 to just 350 people now. Furthermore, in Europe, Sega has reorganized its branches in the Netherlands, Belgium, and Austria and switched over to a proxy system. “Our business scale will shrink, but our losses will also be reduced,” said Nakamura.

    Sega president Hayao Nakayama announced at the beginning of the year, “We are planning to increase our arcade game division by a factor of three to a revenue scale of ¥350 billion.” The plan is to greatly increase the relatively stable income of the arcade division in order to absorb the risk of the home console division.

    By cleansing itself through the extraordinary loss, Sega’s overseas console division will be starting over from zero. Sega’s policy now is to focus on establishing the Saturn, and also on expanding into PC game software in the North American market. “The question now is how much our profits from the arcade market will be able to turn around the console market,” said Nakayama, whose words will be put to the test this year.

  4. #94
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    7,048
    Rep Power
    80

    Default

    And yet so many still tried to make out the 16 bit market was alive and well, when it was clear to most, sales were in decline and the market oversaturated.

    Always said SEGA should have dropped software support for the MD in 94. EDGE said that SEGA had over 3 million unsold copies of Street Fighter 2 alone, quite a lot money with it being a 24 Meg cart and that's just one game

    It made the 32X idea ,even more of a brain dead idea.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  5. #95
    Hero of Algol
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,292
    Rep Power
    199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Here is the promised article translation.

    TLDR: The North American / European 16-bit market peaked in 1993. By 1995, the situation was dire for all software companies, including Nintendo and Sega.

    This goes a long way to explaining why Sega was desperate to release a product in North America as soon as possible, and why it would have been unfeasible to intentionally sit on their hands until 1996.
    Very interesting. Thank you very much for all this new info (I can't rep you again).

    But now I can, to some extent, understand the 32X launch in 1994: with the 16-bit software sales in clear decline and the market apparently shrinking and flooded with "free" 16-bit software, they probably wanted a cheap 32-bit hardware path that would allow them to sell "32-bit" software without having to take a loss for every hardware unit sold.

    Surely there were other reasons (probably a lot of internal politics as we've discussed before), but SOA executives back in 1994 likely read the market wrong as Trekkies had previously said.
    They thought it had to be cheap.
    Instead, Sony read it right: it had to be 3D!

    In such context, the 32X image would probably have been better painted without those half-assed 16-bit ports.


    This article also explains why so many MD games developed in Europe were canceled/not released back in 1994/1995.
    Also to keep in mind: MD, SNES, and 32X versions of Disney's Pinnochio were ready by mid-1995 but only got released in 1996. Now I think they did that to try to avoid releasing it in a market in a dire state.
    Last edited by Barone; 05-09-2022 at 08:00 AM.

  6. #96
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingSports Talker fr0zenbuttox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    38
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    SONY must have been pissing themself's really
    Considering their current state, this must be the case lol

  7. #97
    Underground Sega Nut BonusKun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,079
    Rep Power
    81

    Default

    This thread has been an interesting read. Thanks for starting this..
    05/05/15

  8. #98
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,626
    Rep Power
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Very interesting. Thank you very much for all this new info (I can't rep you again).

    But now I can, to some extent, understand the 32X launch in 1994: with the 16-bit software sales in clear decline and the market apparently shrinking and flooded with "free" 16-bit software, they probably wanted a cheap 32-bit hardware path that would allow them to sell "32-bit" software without having to take a loss for every hardware unit sold.

    Surely there were other reasons (probably a lot of internal politics as we've discussed before), but SOA executives back in 1994 likely read the market wrong as Trekkies had previously said.
    They thought it had to be cheap.
    Instead, Sony read it right: it had to be 3D!

    In such context, the 32X image would probably have been better painted without those half-assed 16-bit ports.
    The games absolutely killed it. I remember when the 32X launched, to hear Sega tell it the SNES was an underpowered system on its last legs while the Genesis was the system of the future with the Sega CD and 32X. They set the bar way too high. So when I saw SNES games with good graphics like DKC or Yoshi's Island they seemed even more impressive for being done on such weak hardware, while for 32X games it was more like "you needed all that, just for this?"

    If it had launched with a few games on par with Doom 32X Resurrection it definitely would have changed my mind.

    Also, at the time I wondered why the 32X games weren't being made for the Sega CD instead. Today I understand the technical reasons why that wouldn't have worked but for a consumer back then it was confusing as hell why Sega had pushed CDs as the future only to go back to cartridges. Even before the Saturn was announced it was obvious to look at Sega's three piece contraption and realize they had to be working on a way to consolidate all of that together. So that was one more reason to hold off on buying anything in the short term.

  9. #99
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    7,048
    Rep Power
    80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    The games absolutely killed it. I remember when the 32X launched, to hear Sega tell it the SNES was an underpowered system on its last legs while the Genesis was the system of the future with the Sega CD and 32X. They set the bar way too high. So when I saw SNES games with good graphics like DKC or Yoshi's Island they seemed even more impressive for being done on such weak hardware, while for 32X games it was more like "you needed all that, just for this?"

    If it had launched with a few games on par with Doom 32X Resurrection it definitely would have changed my mind.
    People weren't mug's. So many were getting bored of the 16-bit generation, with the same style of games with much the same look and style of gameplay. People also forget that the SNES didn't launch until 2 years after the MD so Nintendo was at a different cycle to that of SEGA and would seem to some, that the Snes had more legs' when it was just 2 years behind that of SEGA support cycle and even if you look at DKC, each new entry saw a big drop in sales and what people always overlook is Nintendo games always sell in millions, even on a flop of a system like Wii U.

    It was clear at the end of 1994 that the market was getting ready for a change, so many reviews were knocking games for being more of the same and in 1995 you could walk in the shops in the UK and see more and more space given to PC CD Rom and PS titles and that was reflected in the top 20 charts with PS and PC CD-Rom titles starting to dominate the charts, despite the PS lack of userbase
    I remember when I got my 3DO and it was clear to me then that 3D was the way, you didn't need SONY to tell you that Polaying Fifa on the 3DO was one of the most incredible experiences ever. SEGA just tried too hard to keep on to the MD and was totally wrong on people being willing to pay well over £199 for a next gen experience very early in

    I'm over SEGA being in the Hardware game and have been for years, with MS looking to throw a billion dollars in Xbox development, straight after the valentine's massacre, shows me that SEGA would need to partner with someone, with those sort of levels of spending no matter what. What hurts far far more, is that so many were robbed of being able to play the best Saturn games, because of a lack of market share in the west and tools like Bernie meant less and less transition to add to insult that was SEGA West in the 32bit era and even in Japan its what could have been with more Saturn games towards the end of its life that were instead moved up to DC production like Sonic Adv and Shenmue. 5 years is more than enough got any console to me, but to see the Saturn go out in 1999 with titles like Shenmue and Sonic Adv, RE 2 would have been really nice
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  10. #100
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,626
    Rep Power
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    People weren't mug's. So many were getting bored of the 16-bit generation, with the same style of games with much the same look and style of gameplay. People also forget that the SNES didn't launch until 2 years after the MD so Nintendo was at a different cycle to that of SEGA and would seem to some, that the Snes had more legs' when it was just 2 years behind that of SEGA support cycle and even if you look at DKC, each new entry saw a big drop in sales and what people always overlook is Nintendo games always sell in millions, even on a flop of a system like Wii U.

    It was clear at the end of 1994 that the market was getting ready for a change, so many reviews were knocking games for being more of the same and in 1995 you could walk in the shops in the UK and see more and more space given to PC CD Rom and PS titles and that was reflected in the top 20 charts with PS and PC CD-Rom titles starting to dominate the charts, despite the PS lack of userbase
    I remember when I got my 3DO and it was clear to me then that 3D was the way, you didn't need SONY to tell you that Polaying Fifa on the 3DO was one of the most incredible experiences ever. SEGA just tried too hard to keep on to the MD and was totally wrong on people being willing to pay well over £199 for a next gen experience very early in

    I'm over SEGA being in the Hardware game and have been for years, with MS looking to throw a billion dollars in Xbox development, straight after the valentine's massacre, shows me that SEGA would need to partner with someone, with those sort of levels of spending no matter what. What hurts far far more, is that so many were robbed of being able to play the best Saturn games, because of a lack of market share in the west and tools like Bernie meant less and less transition to add to insult that was SEGA West in the 32bit era and even in Japan its what could have been with more Saturn games towards the end of its life that were instead moved up to DC production like Sonic Adv and Shenmue. 5 years is more than enough got any console to me, but to see the Saturn go out in 1999 with titles like Shenmue and Sonic Adv, RE 2 would have been really nice
    Yeah, that's true. I wasn't the typical customer back then, I would have been happy with another generation of sidescrollers. You're right though most people were ready to move on. PC gaming was really taking off too.

    I haven't played FIFA on the 3DO in forever but what I remember most is the audio, it was one of the few games at the time that really captured the feeling of being at a football game. That impressed me more than the 3D perspective.

    If Sega needed another partner for hardware, why not Hitachi, they already had a business relationship and the company is just as big as Sony. I think they made the right choice though. Home consoles as we knew them are basically dead. Sony and Microsoft are selling mini PCs and the Switch is a glorified Nvidia tablet.

  11. #101
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    7,048
    Rep Power
    80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Yeah, that's true. I wasn't the typical customer back then, I would have been happy with another generation of sidescrollers. You're right though most people were ready to move on. PC gaming was really taking off too.

    I haven't played FIFA on the 3DO in forever but what I remember most is the audio, it was one of the few games at the time that really captured the feeling of being at a football game. That impressed me more than the 3D perspective.

    If Sega needed another partner for hardware, why not Hitachi, they already had a business relationship and the company is just as big as Sony. I think they made the right choice though. Home consoles as we knew them are basically dead. Sony and Microsoft are selling mini PCs and the Switch is a glorified Nvidia tablet.
    I loved Big Boy Barry's Gameworld show on SKY and basically most reviews in late 94 and early 95 read like 'BORING can't we have anything new' In you played one platform game, there were a million other clones that did just the same, the same for any Film or TV licenced all turned into the bog standard walk to the right of the screen style gameplay. The 3DO was wonderful it was like having a coin up in your own home and it showed the way to go. When you played Fifa on it, you just knew that's how many next-gen footy games were going to try and be like. I said it for day one The moment SEGA Japan showed off the finished Saturn in April 1994 was the day SEGA should have killed the 32X and all In-House software support for the MD and moved to Saturn.

    I loved the Hitachi and SEGA partnership, but the huge amounts MS and SONY were prepared to put into their console R&D meant that it would be hard even for SEGA/Hitachi. Maybe if SEGA looked to work with Panasonic, it could have worked, but I doubt those teams would be able to work together given the issues of M2. So I'm well over SEGA making its own hardware, but as I said, what really hurts is how so many people weren't able to see what the Saturn could do at the time, so many faithful Saturn fans in the west, left in the mud, while the Japanese had amazing titles that not only played well but could sometimes give the PS a run for graphics and given poor sales worldwide the Saturn never got to finish off with the likes of RE2, Sonic Adv and Shenmue, which would have been perfect send off's and I'll never forgive Bernie, for not translating Grandia and going one better by then pissing off the one studio that would have done it for SEGA, if SEGA wasn't going to do it themself's

    Grandia was a epic that perfectly captured the sense and spirit of adventure. A gem of a game and a true showcase for the Saturn with amazing audio,wonderful graphics they never broke up or got distorted and used every Saturn effect in the VDP2 and VDP1 playbook and more.. Yet to play in it english (at the time) you had to play the downgraded PS version and get a PS. It be like if SONY West never brought Grand Turismo over to the PS or PS2 or if SEGA didn't translate or bring over the likes of PSO or Shenmue to the DC.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  12. #102
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    1,544
    Rep Power
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    PC gaming was really taking off too.
    This should really be emphasized. I remember clearly beginning in 1993 and 1994 how big PC gaming was becoming in the US. Even though a lot of households still didn't have PCs, everyone was drooling over magazine photos.

    Some of the games I remember being truly awed by:

    Doom / Doom II (1994)
    Myst (1993)
    7th Guest (1993)
    Mega Race (1993)
    Magic Carpet (1994)
    TIE Fighter (1994)
    Wing Commander III (1994)
    Earthsiege (1994)
    System Shock (1994)

    And PC gaming really seemed to explode in 1995/1996. So many classics then.

    The platformers that Sega was releasing in 1994 just seemed so dull in comparison (how can you go back to something like Jurassic Park after playing TIE Fighter?). This is so apparent when you read old magazines reviews from 1994. "It's decently made, but it's just another platform game." Everyone wanted something new.

    I also remember, though, that PC gaming was still generally restricted to a few genres. Simulation games, FPSs, point-and-click adventure games, dungeon crawlers, a lot of mouse-based gaming.

    I think Sony was really able to direct a lot of that energy into the PlayStation. Early PS1 games like Twisted Metal and Warhawk felt like the action genre that was largely missing from PCs.

    Sega, on the other hand, brought the arcade into the home, but in the US at least, I think people were more clamoring for PC games than arcade games at the time.

  13. #103
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,626
    Rep Power
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    This should really be emphasized. I remember clearly beginning in 1993 and 1994 how big PC gaming was becoming in the US. Even though a lot of households still didn't have PCs, everyone was drooling over magazine photos.

    Some of the games I remember being truly awed by:

    Doom / Doom II (1994)
    Myst (1993)
    7th Guest (1993)
    Mega Race (1993)
    Magic Carpet (1994)
    TIE Fighter (1994)
    Wing Commander III (1994)
    Earthsiege (1994)
    System Shock (1994)

    And PC gaming really seemed to explode in 1995/1996. So many classics then.

    The platformers that Sega was releasing in 1994 just seemed so dull in comparison (how can you go back to something like Jurassic Park after playing TIE Fighter?). This is so apparent when you read old magazines reviews from 1994. "It's decently made, but it's just another platform game." Everyone wanted something new.

    I also remember, though, that PC gaming was still generally restricted to a few genres. Simulation games, FPSs, point-and-click adventure games, dungeon crawlers, a lot of mouse-based gaming.

    I think Sony was really able to direct a lot of that energy into the PlayStation. Early PS1 games like Twisted Metal and Warhawk felt like the action genre that was largely missing from PCs.

    Sega, on the other hand, brought the arcade into the home, but in the US at least, I think people were more clamoring for PC games than arcade games at the time.
    Yes. It was a major change. Up until the mid 90s I didn't see consoles and PCs as direct competitors in terms of games. Consoles had the fast paced action games, PCs generally had slower, more strategic stuff like SimCity. PCs also had a reputation for edutainment crapware, although some of those games (like Carmen Sandiego) weren't too bad. But anyway for platformers it wasn't close, Commander Keen was fun but he was no Mario or Sonic.

    Doom was the gamechanger for me, I had never seen a PC game that looked and played that good. Another big one was Warcraft II, being able to play that over a LAN was something you just couldn't do on consoles at the time. Plus on the PC it was incredibly easy to install a shareware version to test a game first, a major advantage over consoles.

    I also agree with the last part you wrote. "Bring the arcade home" was a good slogan for the 80s, but by the mid 90s it no longer made sense. What Sega needed was a killer app, something on the level of FF7 or Mario 64.
    Last edited by axel; 05-22-2022 at 05:44 AM.

  14. #104
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    7,048
    Rep Power
    80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Yes. It was a major change. Up until the mid 90s I didn't see consoles and PCs as direct competitors in terms of games. Consoles had the fast paced action games, PCs generally had slower, more strategic stuff like SimCity. PCs also had a reputation for edutainment crapware, although some of those games (like Carmen Sandiego) weren't too bad. But anyway for platformers it wasn't close, Commander Keen was fun but he was no Mario or Sonic.

    Doom was the gamechanger for me, I had never seen a PC game that looked and played that good. Another big one was Warcraft II, being able to play that over a LAN was something you just couldn't do on consoles at the time. Plus on the PC it was incredibly easy to install a shareware version to test a game first, a major advantage over consoles.

    I also agree with the last part you wrote. "Bring the arcade home" was a good slogan for the 80s, but by the mid 90s it no longer made sense. What Sega needed was a killer app, something on the level of FF7 or Mario 64.
    And it all goes back to the 32X doesn't it and SEGA America desperate to hang on to the Mega Drive. Without the 32X, the Saturn would have had the 1st next gen '32-Bit' version of Doom and it would have been able be much better than the 32X version if 'that' same team had worked on the Saturn game. You then had SEGA Japan then investing big time on 32-bit production with nothing to do with the Arcades, like spending its biggest ever amount on a game and at time Panzer Dragoon was also said to be the most expensive console game too, while SEGA America looked to keep pumping out the same old games for the MD and the 32X, still using the Tude era advertising and having some pleb or animal shot out the worlds SEGA!, in the early 90's it was funny, it the mid 90's it just showed how out of touch SEGA America was and of messing up Sonic and its 2 In-House studios

    Just look at some of the PC ports the Saturn got in Japan, that we never got over here. The likes of Return to Zork, Phantasmagoria - that I was also gutted were never bought to the west for Saturn. IMO SEGA did have a FF7 killer with Grandia, but again SEGA America fecked up and not only didn't look to translate it, looked to upset WD too, the only other studio, that would have brought it over. The Same SEGA America that never looked to bring over Gun Griffon 2, Stellar Assault, Princes Crown, Bulk Slash and a ton more amazing games and worst still with the 32X mess up, SEGA pissed off many of its retail and 3rd parties biggest supporters and moved to the PS

    I will say SEGA at least got one thing right and that's to look to use a production Saturn as a development kit, rather than the bulky programer box from SEGA Japan which cost a fortune and took over a studio. I'm afraid I can't agree over Arcade ports They were still important and a big thing for console gamers at that time. Tekken and RR did help sell the PS to the world and Tekken 3 was a massive seller on the PS
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  15. #105
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingSports Talker fr0zenbuttox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    38
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    was Panzer Dragoon Saga considered the huge killer app for Saturn at the time? I did know it was a big deal amongst critics calling it the Final Fantasy 7 of the Sega Saturn rpg library

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •