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Thread: Japan execs were upset that Kalinske was allowed to resign w/o taking blame for 32X

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    The point wasn't about the PS1's PC ports (of which there were far more than the Saturn).
    The point was that arcade games alone did not have the pull in the American market in 1995 to dominate.
    That's not entirely true.

    Virtua Racing once was #1 hit in US arcades but later on, already in 1993, it was dethroned by NBA Jam.
    Those Midway machines running 2D games with digitized sprites were A LOT cheaper than stuff like Virtua Racing and were making a ton of money. So a lot of arcade room owners began to focus on those machines instead.
    Such a phenomenon never happened in Japan (or even in Europe) AFAIK.

    NBA Jam, NBA Jam TE, MK, MKII, MK3, UMK3, and WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game were huge arcade hits in US in that 1993-1995 period; Midway offered cab conversion/upgrade options, etc.
    Not 3D games; but huge digitized sprites with tons of voice samples, in-game narration/commentary, and powerful stereo sound effects.
    MKII's sound effects in the arcade were really something that would catch your attention at the time.


    The 32X failed to get a proper boost from those games but there were several factors.
    The MKII port came late to the party and was a letdown in several aspects when compared to the SNES version. The recycled MD music, mono sfx, and iffy framerate were really disappointing.
    NBA Jam TE is a better port than MKII but still fails to really impress. The narration is still missing the players' names and both the music and some of the sound effects are even worse than in the Genesis release. The color use could have been a lot better.
    WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game port is the one that is more distant from the 16-bit ports in terms of how well it plays but it was released in late 1995, alongside the PS1 version (which was actually promoted); when the 32X was already dead and buried.

    Those 3 games were released pretty much on every platform available at the time and weren't 32X exclusives even for a single day; they came to the 32X after the 16-bit ports without significant additional content and were released with the Saturn and/or PS1 versions already being promoted.
    Out of those 3, Mortal Kombat II is the one that had the most potential to make any difference in terms of sales given the timing of its release. But it's the worst port of the pack and had an excellent (and more faithful) version on the SNES already available.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Sony's Western developers offered something vital. They built off the then-dominating PC market, tapped into that energy to bring it somewhere new. The PC was slow to get many 3D action games. Remember that the first Voodoo card didn't release until late 1996. For at least two years, the PS1 was pushing the frontier in terms of Western game development.
    Again, it's partially true (mostly for Europe) what you're saying but also off in some aspects.

    Something that is usually overlooked in these discussions: the games which were re-released for the PS1 due to being best-sellers. Those lists of games put some very interesting light on these discussions:
    US
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greate..._(PlayStation)
    https://game-rave.com/?p=1178
    When Sony introduced the program for PlayStation in March 1997, games could become Greatest Hits titles after selling at least 150,000 copies and being on the market for at least a year. Minimum sales required eventually rose to 250,000.
    EU
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentials_(PlayStation)
    To become a Platinum release it was required that a game have over 400,000 total worldwide sales after generally one year on the market
    From the US list:
    1Xtreme (1995)
    2Xtreme (1996)
    Need for Speed (1996)
    Road Rash (1996)

    These 4 games have three things in common: they have 3D graphics but aren't fully 3D games, having limited camera movement; they use a technique where part of the 3D/graphical data is streamed off the CD - the technique was created by Mark Cerny; such technology was used in games released years before, such as Crash 'N Burn (1993), a 3DO launch title.
    Both Road Rash and Need For Speed had been released for the 3DO years prior to that. So, basically, years-old software and technology.
    Original 3DO games such as Road Rash took a long time to be released for the PS1 'cause initially it didn't have libraries to support the kind of on-the-fly data transferring the 3DO explored; it had to catch-up actually.


    Doom (1995)
    1993 PC game plus its 1994 sequel, based on the Atari Jaguar simplified port of the first game but with much better audio (including Dolby Surround support), far better framerate, higher resolution (256 x 240 vs 160 x 240 on the Jaguar), and colored lighting.
    Features Doom II enemies in Doom maps.
    The engine was rewritten for the PS1, it uses its 3D hardware but in a very unorthodox way (see here: https://fabiensanglard.net/doom_psx/). The maps were further simplified when compared to the Atari Jaguar port in some aspects: reduced height for rooms/buildings (especially noticeable for really tall maps), even less texture variability depending on the map, and reduced texture color depth.


    SimCity 2000 (1996)
    This one took about 3 years to be released for the PS1.


    Star Wars: Dark Forces (1996)
    One of the most advanced FPS engines of the time, allowing rooms over rooms and using an interactive music engine.
    Took about 20 months to be released for the PS1, running at a mediocre framerate (20 fps or less AFAIK). A software renderer was used since the graphics had to look solid.


    Star Wars: Rebel Assault II (1996)
    Mostly an FMV game.


    WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game (1995)
    Plays really well but feels rushed; lacks in-game music, a few scenario details, and several voice samples. Beat the Saturn version to the market being released still in 1995.


    Several titles that were "pushing the frontier in terms of Western game development" in 1995/1996 such as Duke Nukem 3D, Descent, Quake, Command & Conquer, and Star Wars: Dark Forces were developed for PC/Mac first.

    The Duke Nukem 3D PS1 port had some serious framerate issues (again, a software-rendered game AFAIK), was a late release, and wasn't one of its best-sellers. The third-person shooter actually made the list.

    Command & Conquer runs better on the Saturn and wasn't a best-selling game for the PS1 in the US, only in Europe.

    Final Doom (1996), which features more complex maps, was released just a few months after the PC releases and has some serious framerate issues ("Next Generation was less impressed, remarking that a side-by-side comparison with the PlayStation version of the original Doom reveals that Final Doom has a much lower frame rate, less precise control, and more visible seams in the textures."). Not one of PS1's best-selling games.


    Some additional thoughts:
    • By the end of 1995, the port of a 2D Midway arcade hit like WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game still had juice in the US. And that's a game released in October 1995, when the PS1 hadn't really hit its stride yet.
    • Tetris Plus (1996) is also on the Greatest Hits list. How about that?
    • Mortal Kombat 3 didn't make those lists; probably got hurt by the excellent 16-bit ports and lack of significant extra content? MK Trilogy is there, so it seems like a plausible theory.
    • Lots of Disney games in those lists, including a retitled Mickey Mania. It feels like Sega read the market wrong in that aspect as well; Pinocchio was developed in 1995 but never released; a Mickey Mania sequel as TT intended to develop could have actually helped the 32X.
    • Star Wars was a super hot license in US (shocker); probably SOA's best move with the 32X despite the absurd difficulty, poor coloring, and mediocre music.
    • No SNK game for western lists. The idea that SNK ports would have helped the 32X (a recurrent one here in Sega-16 over the years) seems far-fetched.
    • The PC's FPS craze had some serious technical hurdles in order to be fully reproduced on the consoles and seemed to be short-lived in comparison. Both the PS1 and Saturn struggled with them. I don't see Hexen on those lists either.
    • The 2D arcade ports by Capcom weren't best-selling PS1 games for the most part. Castlevania and Megaman were still big though. The 32X was supposed to have its own Castlevania.
    • Rayman could also have helped 32X sales.
    • Alien Trilogy is on both US and EU lists. I've always thought that a port of the Jaguar's AvP should have existed for the 32X. Heck, I'd bet there was also an appetite for a deluxe port of Wolfenstein 3D like the Jaguar and 3DO received; for late 1994/early 1995 both titles could have been good sellers. Another missed opportunity.
    • Gex is nowhere to be found.
    • Some of the best/more innovative 3DO games were still viable commercial hits 2-3 years after their original release; given, at least, the much necessary framerate boost.
    • CD medium was key. There are more (double-speed) CD-reliant non-fully 3D games in those best-sellers lists than there are fully 3D games the 32X could run well.
    • From late 1996/early 1997 and on, most of the games were/had to be fully textured polygonal 3D.
      "Maximum was more harsh with the 3DO version, saying that the game is far too old to be worth converting to home console. They said it looks especially poor due to being (by pure coincidence) released in Europe at the same time as the PlayStation version: "The Sony conversion boasts texture-mapped characters moving at higher speeds and with less loading time, whilst the poor old 3DO struggles with flat shaded polygons, a smaller screen size and a chugging frame rate."
    • Isometric platformers were never a good idea, but stuff like Loaded (and 3DO's Captain Quazar) was a good bet for the 32X (and its hardware). Just no platforming in isometric view, folks, that's a dumb idea.
    • Regular 2D platformers could sell but they had to be something really special. Tempo with its broken camera and Chaotix with its broken design and gameplay weren't that. Pitfall TMA had been whored out already and ran like shit on the 32X.
    • Framerate (among other things) was relevant for PC ports. Hot PC titles failed to be PS1 best-selling games every time they failed to attend certain minimums and the bar was raised as the time passed.
    • Big licenses (X-Games, Disney's, 007, Star Wars, WWF, etc.) made a big difference in US; how many 32X games had those? How many of them were exclusive to the 32X?
    • Magazine reviewers didn't have a clue of what would sell or not: about the soon-to-be best-seller Alone in the Dark 2-> "Next Generation emphasized the last point: "frankly it's yesterday's news, and releasing it to PlayStation in the wake of Resident Evil just makes it redundant."
    Last edited by Barone; 05-24-2022 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #122
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    I don't want to claim anything about the numerous PC ports on the PS1. I meant to speak in far more general, big-picture terms. I want to identify trends in the market.

    I was addressing the fact that there was a PC gaming explosion in North America beginning around 1994 that is significant for understanding trends in the 32-bit market in North America. There is a lot of evidence for this explosion. In just a few years, PC games went from basically selling in the tens of thousands to selling over a million copies. Both Kalinske and Nakayama are quoted in newspapers discussing this (Kalinske trying to downplay the threat, Nakayama observing the trend). I personally believe that the explosion began with Doom, but there were hints of it before then with games like Myst.

    I think this trend is important because essentially overnight PC game developers and publishers reached a height in the market that only a few Western companies were reaching on consoles or in arcades. The PC publishers were still limited in growth, however, because capable PCs were still not as widespread as consoles.

    The PS1 really opened the door for these Western companies - not necessarily in regards to ports, but for original titles. Of course there was Psygnosis and the studios under it, but also Core Design, Crystal Dynamics, Interplay, Microprose... many more I can't recall now.

    There was also a trend in game design that I think was influenced by the new directions these Western developers were taking. Japanese games begin to move away from pure arcade-like action to games like Resident Evil, Dino Crisis, Metal Gear Solid. More mature games with dark, developed stories of the sort that Western companies had really started to pump out, and North American audiences loved these.

    I'm not trying to claim that PC games were responsible for everything. Of course it's a multitude of factors. I strongly remember though being drawn to the PS1 early on precisely because it had these new Western-developed games (like Twisted Metal and Warhawk) that felt like PC games (but better because PCs were still weak at 3D in 1995).

    TLRD: There were more PS1 games that scratched the Western-developed, PC-game-like itch. That was a very weak spot for the Saturn, which relied heavily on Sega's arcade games for promotion.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    The point wasn't about the PS1's PC ports (of which there were far more than the Saturn).

    The point was that arcade games alone did not have the pull in the American market in 1995 to dominate.

    Sony's Western developers offered something vital. They built off the then-dominating PC market, tapped into that energy to bring it somewhere new. The PC was slow to get many 3D action games. Remember that the first Voodoo card didn't release until late 1996. For at least two years, the PS1 was pushing the frontier in terms of Western game development.

    There was very little of that to be found on the Saturn, whose dominant library was essentially a collection of Sega's Japanese-developed games.
    It was up to SEGA America to step up to the plate and they failed, they were too busy wasting their time on the MD and 32X. You talk of Doom, but other than being a graphical showcase how well did it actually do? I don't think it even sold over a million copies on any console it was on and no doubt something like GoldebEye 64 smashed Doom PC sales on it's own and come the mid 90s it was polygons that were the talk of the town.

    Multimedia wasn't that new either, I heard that stuff peddled around for the CDTV and when I had my 3D0 it was clear what Multi Media meant with games like Crash N Burn, Shockwave Assault and Madden, FIFA Ect.

    You look back and even if SEGA had bought Psygnosis. SOA would have then making Wipeout for the 32X with cut back visuals, crappy sound and huge limits thanks to being on cart...

    The 32X should have been killer in 1994 along with SEGA support for the MD and have all it's team's move to Saturn, even then SONY would have killed SEGA for sales, but I really thought the N64 was there for the taking
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    I don't want to claim anything about the numerous PC ports on the PS1. I meant to speak in far more general, big-picture terms. I want to identify trends in the market.

    I was addressing the fact that there was a PC gaming explosion in North America beginning around 1994 that is significant for understanding trends in the 32-bit market in North America. There is a lot of evidence for this explosion. In just a few years, PC games went from basically selling in the tens of thousands to selling over a million copies. Both Kalinske and Nakayama are quoted in newspapers discussing this (Kalinske trying to downplay the threat, Nakayama observing the trend). I personally believe that the explosion began with Doom, but there were hints of it before then with games like Myst.

    I think this trend is important because essentially overnight PC game developers and publishers reached a height in the market that only a few Western companies were reaching on consoles or in arcades. The PC publishers were still limited in growth, however, because capable PCs were still not as widespread as consoles.

    The PS1 really opened the door for these Western companies - not necessarily in regards to ports, but for original titles. Of course there was Psygnosis and the studios under it, but also Core Design, Crystal Dynamics, Interplay, Microprose... many more I can't recall now.

    There was also a trend in game design that I think was influenced by the new directions these Western developers were taking. Japanese games begin to move away from pure arcade-like action to games like Resident Evil, Dino Crisis, Metal Gear Solid. More mature games with dark, developed stories of the sort that Western companies had really started to pump out, and North American audiences loved these.

    I'm not trying to claim that PC games were responsible for everything. Of course it's a multitude of factors. I strongly remember though being drawn to the PS1 early on precisely because it had these new Western-developed games (like Twisted Metal and Warhawk) that felt like PC games (but better because PCs were still weak at 3D in 1995).

    TLRD: There were more PS1 games that scratched the Western-developed, PC-game-like itch. That was a very weak spot for the Saturn, which relied heavily on Sega's arcade games for promotion.
    You're making a mistake by ignoring the 3DO's importance for small studios in US. This is what put companies like Naughty Dog on the map, to begin with. The 3DO had much cheaper licensing fees.
    You didn't need a complex and super expensive devkit to develop games for it. Also, keep in mind that Lobotomy Software initially chose the Saturn 'cause they didn't have the money for a PS1 devkit, which was more expensive.

    I strongly recommend the read of this article:
    https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design...immercenary-i-

    Also interesting (runs much slower on real hardware) (pre-dates all those games you cited):


    Crash Bandicoot is another game that uses the same technique of limiting/scripting the camera angles and streaming pre-calculated polygon data off the CD; like several 3DO games did. That's a design/tech trend that helped both the 3DO and the PS1 early on but was much less used on the Saturn; PS1's Quake II also streams polygon data off the CD.

    One thing that attracted companies to the PS1 in opposition to the Saturn was how many fewer weeks it took for you to print a second run (or third, etc.) of a game.
    So you could do a smaller run initially and then quickly support the increasing demand if the game became a hit; it was less risky than with the Saturn and you could make the most of a positive wave.

    While Myst and Doom helped to push the PC as a gaming platform, they're part of different trends.
    Games like Myst and 7th Guest pushed the CD-ROM popularization; that was their main accomplishment.
    Doom and Quake pushed 3D gaming on PCs, multiplayer and online gaming. Doom and Quake were also very influential by tooling the 3D level design, sharing their tools and creating giant communities of modders, etc. A lot of people would later join the industry having cut their teeth in creating those mods.

    Myst made people buy a CD-ROM drive.
    Doom made people upgrade their PCs or buy new ones.
    Quake made people upgrade to an FPU-equipped CPU/PC. And also helped to push 3D accelerator cards.
    Last edited by Barone; 05-24-2022 at 09:30 AM.

  5. #125
    End of line.. Shining Hero gamevet's Avatar
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    Nothing was big as Doom in 1993. It was on over 20 million PCs, before the SNES got its version. Doom is on just about every platform you can think of, including a fan made version for the Amiga.
    Last edited by gamevet; 05-24-2022 at 08:38 AM.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You talk of Doom, but other than being a graphical showcase how well did it actually do? I don't think it even sold over a million copies on any console it was on and no doubt something like GoldebEye 64 smashed Doom PC sales on it's own and come the mid 90s it was polygons that were the talk of the town.
    Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Nothing was big as Doom in 1993. It was on over 20 million PCs, before the SNES got its version. Doom is on just about every platform you can think of, including a fan made version for the Amiga.
    This. It was on more PCs than Windows 95 so MS released Doom 95 in 1996; still pretty relevant at the time.
    Just notice that Doom 95 supported more complex WADs than the original 1993 release and resolutions up to 640x480.
    Doom was also widely used for benchmarks. You didn't have good hardware if you couldn't run Doom well; the trend would continue with Quake.
    Last edited by Barone; 05-24-2022 at 09:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Lol.
    Doom never sold millions and millions of copies, even on the PC at the time?. If you need to hide behind the shareware so be it, but what it did sell a million or 2 million?
    Goldeneye64 on its own beat any sales of Doom or Doom 2 on the PC. Looking at the consoles, did Doom sell over a million copies on the PS?, Did Doom 64 over a million copies on the N64? and it's not like Quake sold that well on either the Saturn or N64 and Quake 2 hardly smashed the N64 charts, was DOOM even the best selling 32X game or Jaguar game?

    In the early 1990's nothing going to match what a single console game could sell. No doubt I'll be told it was different in the USA, I would have said it took until the end of 90's where PC sales really started to take off, with the system becoming more in reach of many and the death of the Microcomputers. Please don't think I'm undermining id importance or impact on the industry, but like with Unreal game, how well did Doom really sell at the time, that's not to take away its importance to moving the industry forward.

    I also think the impact of Alone in the Dark and Little Big Adventure is really underrated and overlooked. I remember playing those on my mate's father's PC and just being blown away by the graphics and presentation and hoping that would be the stuff we could expect on the new 32 Bit systems, not knowing at the time that Capcom would basically rip-off AITD. So before Vet jumps on me, I always wanted and looked forward to PC ports To this day Wing Commander on the Mega CD, Rise of the Dragon Mega CD and Starflight on the MD are some of fave games of all time and yes practically anything to do with consoles started on the PC 1st, be it tech or RPG's and basically every genre known to man or women. It was so sad to see that one of the best parts of the Mega Drive was having all those PC/Microcomputer ports and SEGA did not look to build on that with the Saturn with making it easier with its tools chain



    To get back to consoles, it seemed to me more PS users cared more about Tomb Raider, Crash, RR or Tekken than any PC port really giving users the full 32bit experience, not thinking a bloody add-on to a 16bit system was going to win the hearts and minds of bored gamers, win the 32bit market outright and with Carts costing £60 for added insults .
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    I think it's safe to say you don't know anything about the PC market of the time if you're doubting Doom's success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    In 1995 PC's were also very expensive and out of reach for many.
    Meant to respond to this earlier, yes PCs were more expensive but they were already seen as a necessity. Consoles on the other hand are luxury items. I don't want to downplay anyone's economic situation but I can't remember anyone in the 90s who bought game consoles but didn't own a computer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    • By the end of 1995, the port of a 2D Midway arcade hit like WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game still had juice in the US. And that's a game released in October 1995, when the PS1 hadn't really hit its stride yet.
    • Tetris Plus (1996) is also on the Greatest Hits list. How about that?
    • Mortal Kombat 3 didn't make those lists; probably got hurt by the excellent 16-bit ports and lack of significant extra content? MK Trilogy is there, so it seems like a plausible theory.
    • Lots of Disney games in those lists, including a retitled Mickey Mania. It feels like Sega read the market wrong in that aspect as well; Pinocchio was developed in 1995 but never released; a Mickey Mania sequel as TT intended to develop could have actually helped the 32X.
    • Star Wars was a super hot license in US (shocker); probably SOA's best move with the 32X despite the absurd difficulty, poor coloring, and mediocre music.
    • No SNK game for western lists. The idea that SNK ports would have helped the 32X (a recurrent one here in Sega-16 over the years) seems far-fetched.
    • The PC's FPS craze had some serious technical hurdles in order to be fully reproduced on the consoles and seemed to be short-lived in comparison. Both the PS1 and Saturn struggled with them. I don't see Hexen on those lists either.
    • The 2D arcade ports by Capcom weren't best-selling PS1 games for the most part. Castlevania and Megaman were still big though. The 32X was supposed to have its own Castlevania.
    • Rayman could also have helped 32X sales.
    • Alien Trilogy is on both US and EU lists. I've always thought that a port of the Jaguar's AvP should have existed for the 32X. Heck, I'd bet there was also an appetite for a deluxe port of Wolfenstein 3D like the Jaguar and 3DO received; for late 1994/early 1995 both titles could have been good sellers. Another missed opportunity.
    • Gex is nowhere to be found.
    • Some of the best/more innovative 3DO games were still viable commercial hits 2-3 years after their original release; given, at least, the much necessary framerate boost.
    • CD medium was key. There are more (double-speed) CD-reliant non-fully 3D games in those best-sellers lists than there are fully 3D games the 32X could run well.
    • From late 1996/early 1997 and on, most of the games were/had to be fully textured polygonal 3D.
      "Maximum was more harsh with the 3DO version, saying that the game is far too old to be worth converting to home console. They said it looks especially poor due to being (by pure coincidence) released in Europe at the same time as the PlayStation version: "The Sony conversion boasts texture-mapped characters moving at higher speeds and with less loading time, whilst the poor old 3DO struggles with flat shaded polygons, a smaller screen size and a chugging frame rate."
    • Isometric platformers were never a good idea, but stuff like Loaded (and 3DO's Captain Quazar) was a good bet for the 32X (and its hardware). Just no platforming in isometric view, folks, that's a dumb idea.
    • Regular 2D platformers could sell but they had to be something really special. Tempo with its broken camera and Chaotix with its broken design and gameplay weren't that. Pitfall TMA had been whored out already and ran like shit on the 32X.
    • Framerate (among other things) was relevant for PC ports. Hot PC titles failed to be PS1 best-selling games every time they failed to attend certain minimums and the bar was raised as the time passed.
    • Big licenses (X-Games, Disney's, 007, Star Wars, WWF, etc.) made a big difference in US; how many 32X games had those? How many of them were exclusive to the 32X?
    • Magazine reviewers didn't have a clue of what would sell or not: about the soon-to-be best-seller Alone in the Dark 2-> "Next Generation emphasized the last point: "frankly it's yesterday's news, and releasing it to PlayStation in the wake of Resident Evil just makes it redundant."
    So looking at that list, I would have been surprised to see many games like Pinocchio or Mickey Mania on the 32X. The 32X was aiming for an older audience, people in their teens and 20s. Castlevania: The Bloodletting could have been huge, since it was the same team that went on to make Symphony of the Night. Rayman would have been another good choice to show off the capabilities of the 32X. Ultimately though I wish they had gone more for 3D or raycast games as those would have shown the 32X as a true next gen system. Tempo and Pitfall TMA were terrible. Gex is cool but at the time few people had heard of it. It's a shame Spider-Man: Web of Fire wasn't more polished. It had a lot of potential.

    Re: your comments on the arcades, this is exactly what I was saying a few pages back. The advanced arcade games were getting very expensive, often $1 per credit. Plus with the arcade scene declining, developers were taking fewer risks and instead making the same kinds of games over and over because they knew what would sell. Compare that to the variety in arcade games in the 1980s and it's not even close. Walk into a mid 90s arcade and it was 31 flavors of one on one fighters and racing games, plus a few rail shooters. The only thing that really stood was out seeing games like Dance Dance Revolution in the late 90s, stuff even casual players could get into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    While Myst and Doom helped to push the PC as a gaming platform, they're part of different trends.
    Games like Myst and 7th Guest pushed the CD-ROM popularization; that was their main accomplishment.
    Doom and Quake pushed 3D gaming on PCs, multiplayer and online gaming. Doom and Quake were also very influential by tooling the 3D level design, sharing their tools and creating giant communities of modders, etc. A lot of people would later join the industry having cut their teeth in creating those mods.

    Myst made people buy a CD-ROM drive.
    Doom made people upgrade their PCs or buy new ones.
    Quake made people upgrade to an FPU-equipped CPU/PC. And also helped to push 3D accelerator cards.
    This goes to show how diverse the videogame market had gotten by that point. Myst not only showed what CD-ROM tech could do, it showed there was an untapped market of middle aged adults. It was also the best game for a Mac I had seen at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Doom never sold millions and millions of copies, even on the PC at the time?. If you need to hide behind the shareware so be it, but what it did sell a million or 2 million?
    Goldeneye64 on its own beat any sales of Doom or Doom 2 on the PC. Looking at the consoles, did Doom sell over a million copies on the PS?, Did Doom 64 over a million copies on the N64? and it's not like Quake sold that well on either the Saturn or N64 and Quake 2 hardly smashed the N64 charts, was DOOM even the best selling 32X game or Jaguar game?
    I think the reported sales numbers for Doom (2 million?) are a bit misleading. To get the full amount add up the sales for Doom, Doom II, Doom95, Ultimate Doom etc all of which came out well before Goldeneye. Then multiply those by at least 10, to account for the number of people playing pirated copies. Plus Doom had a much larger cultural impact because up until that time the best FPS anyone had seen was Wolfenstein 3D. Doom also got popular because it was controversial, with the borderline Satanic imagery and (for the time) realistic violence. I can't take anything away from Goldeneye though, even today I look at it and wonder how they did that on the N64. Although I still think that one rifle looks like a charcoal pencil.

    Doom is one of those games that I enjoyed much more on a PC than any console. Almost from the beginning my friends and I were trading WADs with each other, then a little after Doom II I got a hold of a WAD editor and could make my own. I know it's primitive today but back then being able to create little worlds in 3D felt incredible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    I think it's safe to say you don't know anything about the PC market of the time if you're doubting Doom's success.
    I'm not doubting it at all, just like to know what it actually 'sold', because I used to sub to PC Zone and they would make out that Half-Life was the bigger selling game, but they made out Half-Life sold 5 million copies and that figures seem hard to quantify, it no doubt was more. What's in no doubt is doom or any id game never sold in huge numbers on any of the 5th consoles and I doubt Dark Forces, Myst and a host of other PC ports did any great sort of numbers on the 5th gen consoles

    I would just say most people went to SONY in 95/ because they were selling and offering a true 32Bit experience, while SEGA was still trying to hold on to the 16-bit market, thinking Add-Ons still worked and fecking up the 32Bit Sonic. When you get down to it, those were the real issues. No true Sonic and thinking the 16-bit user base would win. Looking over so many console gamers were bored to death of the same 2D and the same scrolling left to right style of games be it for platform or any licensed based games.

    I had a titfull of them too and that's one of the reasons I pumped out the money for the 3DO; along with PC 3D tech it gave you a glimpse into the Future and why I was so glad to leave the 16 bit era behind, bar Lunar 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    I think it's safe to say you don't know anything about the PC market of the time if you're doubting Doom's success.
    Obviously, he didnít know anything about the CD market either. No amount of hard facts will get through to him.

    I got my Genesis from a friend for $150 with 3 games. He had bought it to hold him over until he could buy a PC. I remember him showing me DOOM and later Descent on his PC. The 1st game he was infatuated with was Harpoon.

    I was an Amiga owner, so I didnít get to really play DOOM until I got that rough SNES version and wouldnít get the full DOOM experience Until I got it on the PlayStation. I was also envious of the PC gamers that got to play those Star Wars and Wing Commander games. Man the PC was really becoming awesome in the early 90s.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Obviously, he didnít know anything about the CD market either.
    How about you give the facts, and show us the data for PC Doom sales? Then while you're at it, show us how well Doom, Doom64, Quake, and Quake II sold on the consoles and then followed by how well Dark Forces, Myst sold on the consoles ...
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    Even if I show you, youíll still put your fingers in your ears and go La, La, La!

    There is no Goldeneye without the influence of DOOM. There is no Aliens Vs. Predator, without DOOM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    By all means, call people out and ask for facts, but at least produce them too.
    What's the sale data for Doom on the PC, Doom on the consoles; same goes for Quake, Quake 2 and Dark Forces on the PC and consoles?
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    Itís not that hard for you to look up. Iíve only looked up DOOM for PC, with @3.5 million sold at retail and 1.15 million with mail-in. Europe was estimated to sell about another 25%, which would put it at @5 million units. Then thereís the DOOM Dual pack that sold another 5-6 million, which would put the sales number of DOOM around 12 million, before including another 2 million for a 2016 reboot.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_(franchise)#Sales
    Last edited by gamevet; 05-25-2022 at 07:01 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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