Final Fight Ultimate

[Stifu]

You guys are so observant. I would never have picked up on those details.

I'm working on a beat 'em up for the Mega Drive, so that helps (nothing worth showing yet). Otherwise I would not have noticed.

[Vludi]

I think it's good to be realistic about our expectations, but I also think that, if you were to pick a 90's arcade game to convert to a 4th gen console, a CPS-1 game being ported to the Genesis/MD is about as ideal as it can get, and the game being Final Fight, one of the best known, well-documented arcade games of the 90's, with a goal of getting it running on hardware that is so damn close to the coin-op, is pretty much the best place to start. Not only that, the console already has a damn fine port available, so there's lots of material to draw from.

Some old games may look simple at first but are actually difficult to recreate, I remember that in the making-of video of Windjammers 2, the developers stated that it took them quite a while to match the gameplay from the original Windjammers, they were surprised with the code and even had direct contact with the original developers in order to make a worthwhile sequel.
Overall it's more convenient to make an "approximation" than a faithful port, in Final Fight's case even the Sega CD port has some rather weird stuff compared to the arcade, while the SNES version is almost a different game. Either way this new port will be an interesting homebrew addition, "ultimate mode" could be pretty cool if there are extra moves/mechanics, characters or stages.

There's no way such a high-quality port could have been made back then. It's just like the aMaru's Ghouls & Ghosts improvement hack, there's no way the game could have been that good back then, given the constraints of the time.

By 1993 I think they could've developed a solid 16mbits MD port, maybe not as good looking this one but still solid.

[axel]

Some old games may look simple at first but are actually difficult to recreate, I remember that in the making-of video of Windjammers 2, the developers stated that it took them quite a while to match the gameplay from the original Windjammers, they were surprised with the code and even had direct contact with the original developers in order to make a worthwhile sequel.
Overall it's more convenient to make an "approximation" than a faithful port, in Final Fight's case even the Sega CD port has some rather weird stuff compared to the arcade, while the SNES version is almost a different game. Either way this new port will be an interesting homebrew addition, "ultimate mode" could be pretty cool if there are extra moves/mechanics, characters or stages.

By 1993 I think they could've developed a solid 16mbits MD port, maybe not as good looking this one but still solid.

That is so true about many SNES ports. They look good visually, but they play like different games. Having a fast 68k made a lot of things possible for the Genesis.

A 16mbit port should have looked pretty good considering the SNES port is only half that. 1993 seems a bit late for a cart release of Final Fight though. If Sega wanted to do it you'd think they'd go for it right away when it's new and fresh.

[Vludi]

It's not just the 68k as King of dragons was a pretty good port compared to Final Fight, and there are unfaithful MD arcade ports too like Sunset Riders. Sometimes the developers were just more willing or capable to make more accurate ports regardless of hardware differences.
1993 was the same year SF2 SCE was released, so a cart release of Final Fight doesn't sound too bad imo, to me porting an old arcade game for the Sega CD was a weirder decision.

[Chev Chelios]

It's not just the 68k as King of dragons was a pretty good port compared to Final Fight, and there are unfaithful MD arcade ports too like Sunset Riders. Sometimes the developers were just more willing or capable to make more accurate ports regardless of hardware differences.
1993 was the same year SF2 SCE was released, so a cart release of Final Fight doesn't sound too bad imo, to me porting an old arcade game for the Sega CD was a weirder decision.

Your observations are somewhat wrong, even in ports where we have the source code, it is very difficult to get a 1/1 result, until the end of the 2000s there was no perfect port of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, considering here also the difference in the power of Arcade hardware and Mega drive.
So I think starting from that point of view is wrong, it's very obvious that everyone involved is looking for the best and closest to the arcade, but first of all what really matters is an experience, interesting and fun. You may not remember, in the 90's Turtles In Time Arcade was ported to Snes, and many consider the Snes version to be a far superior and most often definitive experience.
The Hidecade comparison struck me as extremely rude and disrespectful.
It would be interesting comments/criticisms to help and not just shit.

[Vludi]

Your observations are somewhat wrong, even in ports where we have the source code, it is very difficult to get a 1/1 result, until the end of the 2000s there was no perfect port of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, considering here also the difference in the power of Arcade hardware and Mega drive.
So I think starting from that point of view is wrong, it's very obvious that everyone involved is looking for the best and closest to the arcade, but first of all what really matters is an experience, interesting and fun.

Well the port has an "arcade mode" which uses arcade assets and similar enemy placement, so it's only natural to expect some accuracy, just like the Sega CD and Sharp ports. I'm not saying that it has to be 1:1, just saying that so far it falls short compared to the other ports. Again I know that it's difficult to replicate the arcade, which is why I see more potential in "ultimate mode" which isn't tied to the arcade's standards, and best of all, could offer a somewhat original experience.

You may not remember, in the 90's Turtles In Time Arcade was ported to Snes, and many consider the Snes version to be a far superior and most often definitive experience.

Because the gameplay and levels were completely overhauled to the point it's a different game from the arcade, not the case we're seeing here with "arcade mode" at least, which is just a regular port.

The Hidecade comparison struck me as extremely rude and disrespectful.
It would be interesting comments/criticisms to help and not just shit.

Now you are just being overly defensive, just mentioned Hidecade as an example of someone being very concerned with matching the original gameplay, I can understand that other developers have different priorities. If Mauro needs playtesters I'm up for it, though there are enough brazilian FF veterans out there that can be of help.

[axel]

Now you are just being overly defensive, just mentioned Hidecade as an example of someone being very concerned with matching the original gameplay, I can understand that other developers have different priorities. If Mauro needs playtesters I'm up for it, though there are enough brazilian FF veterans out there that can be of help.

Is he looking for people who speak Portuguese to test? I could help with that.

[Stifu]

Is he looking for people who speak Portuguese to test? I could help with that.

I guess the best would be to reach out to him on Twitter.

By the way, new tweet: https://twitter.com/MXRetroDev/statu...92582572130306

Honestly, my fist impression is that I like the left (old) picture better. It's more dull, but the right one looks garish, and characters don't stand out as well from the background. In the new one, it seems like he's using character palettes for some of the background elements (with the car having Guy's colors), which strikes me as a bad idea. That said, the author says you have to see it in action to really appreciate it. I guess the changes he's making are in line with axel's opinion regarding color usages. Anyway, so far he has done a great job, so I trust the end result will be pretty nice.

[axel]

I guess the changes he's making are in line with axel's opinion regarding color usages. Anyway, so far he has done a great job, so I trust the end result will be pretty nice.

That is what I said, yes... but I pictured it looking different than this. I think in a scene like this it makes sense to use more muted colors for the background, so the characters will pop against it. Like that skyline for example I would rather it be in gray than blue, because I want to focus on what's happening in the foreground.

Edit: I looked at that part of the stage (from the arcade version) in Photoshop and it's using 100 colors just for the background alone. That's going to be very tough to reduce and still look good. I guess it depends how accurate you want to stay to the original. You could for example set the stage at night, darken everything, that would make the far background much easier as you could get rid of all the blues and greens.

[Black_Tiger]

That is what I said, yes... but I pictured it looking different than this. I think in a scene like this it makes sense to use more muted colors for the background, so the characters will pop against it. Like that skyline for example I would rather it be in gray than blue, because I want to focus on what's happening in the foreground.

Edit: I looked at that part of the stage (from the arcade version) in Photoshop and it's using 100 colors just for the background alone. That's going to be very tough to reduce and still look good. I guess it depends how accurate you want to stay to the original. You could for example set the stage at night, darken everything, that would make the far background much easier as you could get rid of all the blues and greens.

The number of colors isn't a good indicator of what actually needs to be done. There's a big difference between adapting a 100 color photograph and adapting a 100 color background of a game using <15 color tiles and meta sprites to different hardware that uses <15 color tiles and meta sprites.

Capcom's CPS games use the kind of vibrant shaded coloring that I like, which is also very 16-bit console friendly.

I updated my POC Final Fight recolors to proper Mega Drive colors, but photoshop screwed them up. So here the 4-palette version is PC Engine colors (not PCE spec).


I didn't finish polishing up the background and the drainage pipe and floor still need to have one be rolled into one of the matching palettes. Everything else is using one of the 4 palettes I designed around prioritizing the player sprites. Player sprites looking good and accurate makes or breaks ports for me and is why the SuperGrafx version of Daimakaimura is uncomfortable for me to play.






I have some orangey alternate drums that I might have swapped in. The "polishing" would involve going into elements like the sky/cityscape and adjusting the colors by hand to suit the new palette and redrawing bits here and there. The player life count font would use a better suited set of colors from the 4 palettes. A proper port might need tile reduction, but this was just and experiment to show what the Mega Drive can do with color.



The arcade version of the Player Select screen is 87 colors. My 4-palette 9-bit color version is 42 colors.




It wasn't difficult to do at all. After adapting arcade assets to 9-bit colors for a while it becomes clear what kind of shades need to be rolled into a darker or lighter color.

[Stifu]

That is what I said, yes... but I pictured it looking different than this.

Well, he's reconsidering those changes anyway.

It wasn't difficult to do at all.

Your mockups look good, but the thing with mockups is that they tend to overlook some technical issues as they mainly focus on a single static scene looking good. If I'm not mistaken, your stage mockup dedicates a different color palette for each hero. Final Fight supporting 2 players, that'd mean that half of the palettes would remain static throughout the game. While acceptable, I believe Mega Drive games rarely do this, and they'll tend to use the same palette for all heroes in order to have more color variety for everything else. Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but your stage mockup contains 169 unique colors.

[Black_Tiger]

Well, he's reconsidering those changes anyway.


Your mockups look good, but the thing with mockups is that they tend to overlook some technical issues as they mainly focus on a single static scene looking good. If I'm not mistaken, your stage mockup dedicates a different color palette for each hero. Final Fight supporting 2 players, that'd mean that half of the palettes would remain static throughout the game. While acceptable, I believe Mega Drive games rarely do this, and they'll tend to use the same palette for all heroes in order to have more color variety for everything else. Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but your stage mockup contains 169 unique colors.

The point was to prioritize player palettes for each area. I'd adjust sprites to match the lighting in each area on hardware with unlimited palettes. It would just happen to benefit a Mega Drive version.

In that first area I worked on years ago I didn't just make the best player sprites I could and then downgrade the rest. I began with ideal player sprites and enemy sprites and changed them as I consolidated them while factoring in the similarities to the general color of background elements.

What you're talking about is how most Mega Drive games were made, even with single player sprites and it's what resulted in so many harsh color issues.

[daminmancejin2]

Somebody already made a damn cartridge for Sega Genesis final fight this is catching on quick

[Hairlesswookiee]

Somebody already made a damn cartridge for Sega Genesis final fight this is catching on quick

That's awesome. I need to get me one of those.

[Vludi]

So Mauro confirmed the new content:

ARCADE: Arcade +speed option. [Turbo mode]
ULTIMATE: +moves, updated gameplay and +2 characters.
BOSS RUSH: What will happen if you fight with more than one boss at the same time?
SURVIVAL: How many waves of enemies could you survive?
TIME ATTACK: How many enemies can you beat in 10 min?