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Thread: Resident Evil 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Capcom say a lot of stuff, only to then go back on their world. RE4 was Cube only, SF 2 Snes only, Code Veronica DC only, Dead Rising or Lost Planet were only possible on the 360 and would only be on those systems, much like only the Saturn could handle a home version of X-men Vs Streetfighter and it would be Saturn exclusive, or how Shinji would never work on the PS2, RE4 would never come to the PS2 or he'll leave Capcom.
    The Playstation version of X-Men VS Street Fighter is missing the key gameplay feature that defines the VS series. It is missing because only the Saturn or a cost prohibitive N64 cart could pull it off.

    That leaves it as "X-Men COTA 'II featuring The World Warriors".


    Saying that the Saturn could have pulled off RE2 by dropping asset quality down to a level that it would fit within the console CD ram, similar to ports to GBC and Gamecom, is arguing that it wasn't possible to pull off a full quality RE2 port on Saturn without a ram cart.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    More missing the point
    I don't give a shit what Capcom may or may not have said in a poorly translated magazine article that you read. I'm talking about the actual tangible data on the disc and the actual hardware specs of the systems. And looking at that, there is a serious memory issue. Now there maybe some compression that could have helped with this, but it still may have required a RAM cart when it was all said and done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    When people get past fanboys and system bashing, any port is possible, it then just becomes how much is lost in the port. How many SEGA fanboy's said Sonic/2 or SOR2 would be impossible possible on the SNES only for the games to appear on the Master System, Sonic even was on the Neo Geo Pocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    How many SEGA fanboys and fans even on here, said that Sonic was only possible due to Blast Processing and the Snes even wouldn't be able to handle the music, let alone the game. Now thanks to the Homebrew community, Sonic is out on the Snes, music as well and that's to look over no retail MD game ever used blast processing.. But hey, it sounded good and us SEGA fanboy's used it
    I remember back in the day Nintendo scoffed at Sonic being impossible on the SNES. They said something like "character speed has nothing to do with processor speed, a plumber could move as fast as a hedgehog if programmed to do so." I never doubted the SNES could handle the basic Sonic engine, it is just a 2D platformer after all, where I think it would have trouble is when there's lots of sprites or trying to run Sonic 2's two player split screen. For that it might need an enhancement chip. As far as music goes, yes the SNES can do it, but it needs a lot of high quality samples (meaning a bigger ROM) to mimic the FM synthesis of the Genesis. So while making something resembling Sonic was totally possible it would have been more expensive back in the day.

    The one thing the SNES can never match is the screen resolution. I saw people complain about that in TiagoSC's port, since the assets are the same width it's like cutting four columns off the screen, so you are constantly running into stuff you can't see. That's my main gripe with the SMS to Game Gear ports too, they really needed to redesign the stages and/or redraw everything. Sonic Pocket Adventure on NGPC was designed with the hardware in mind and it feels great, an underrated gem of a game that shows how good Sonic could have been on 8-bit hardware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    The Playstation version of X-Men VS Street Fighter is missing the key gameplay feature that defines the VS series. It is missing because only the Saturn or a cost prohibitive N64 cart could pull it off.

    That leaves it as "X-Men COTA 'II featuring The World Warriors".
    The point was it was still possible and it also went against what Capcom said when 1st showing off X-Mex Men Vs Steet Fighter on the Saturn at the Toyko game show (or some event in Japan). Where Capcom said it would only be possible on the Saturn and would be exclusive. When one gets past system point scoring, fanboy talk any port is possible, it becomes all about what can be added or needed to be taken away to make it possible


    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I don't give a shit what Capcom may or may not have said in a poorly translated magazine article that you read. I'm talking about the actual tangible data on the disc and the actual hardware specs of the systems. And looking at that, there is a serious memory issue. Now there maybe some compression that could have helped with this, but it still may have required a RAM cart when it was all said and done.
    It wasn't poorly translated, it was more about people miss quoting, what was actually said that was more the issue and when it comes to Capcom they do say a lot of things, only to do the exact opposite

    If people can get RE2 running on a GBA or the game saw a release on a Tiger GameCom, then you could have been sure RE2 could have come out on a Saturn. It all becomes what would have needed to be taken out or changed to make it all possible. Sticking with the GBA, one saw a silly amount of games that should have no business running on the hardware from Tekken, Sega Rally, Max Payne to Crazy Taxi and you're on the hombew, thanks to that we now see Quake and Tomb Raider running on a GBA.

    Anything is possible, even having VF2 running on a base Mega Drive, where most people thinking the Saturn couldn't do it after VF port.

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I remember back in the day Nintendo scoffed at Sonic being impossible on the SNES. They said something like "character speed has nothing to do with processor speed, a plumber could move as fast as a hedgehog if programmed to do so." I never doubted the SNES could handle the basic Sonic engine, it is just a 2D platformer after all, where I think it would have trouble is when there's lots of sprites or trying to run Sonic 2's two player split screen. For that it might need an enhancement chip. As far as music goes, yes the SNES can do it, but it needs a lot of high quality samples (meaning a bigger ROM) to mimic the FM synthesis of the Genesis. So while making something resembling Sonic was totally possible it would have been more expensive back in the day.

    The one thing the SNES can never match is the screen resolution. I saw people complain about that in TiagoSC's port, since the assets are the same width it's like cutting four columns off the screen, so you are constantly running into stuff you can't see. That's my main gripe with the SMS to Game Gear ports too, they really needed to redesign the stages and/or redraw everything. Sonic Pocket Adventure on NGPC was designed with the hardware in mind and it feels great, an underrated gem of a game that shows how good Sonic could have been on 8-bit hardware.
    Lots of sides will say this or that game isn't possible or can't be done, only for it to turn out, not to be the case and I've been there myself with silly comments on RSG or Batman Returns on the Mega CD, way way back on Video imports chat room (that's how long it was, a bloody chat room) remember in school MD fans saying Sonic, SOR 2, Thunder Force IV wouldn't be possible on the SNES and then you get the Snes lot, saying Mario Kart, Axelay wouldn't be possible and it's all for the birds. Treasure even said Gunstar Heroes wouldn't be possible on any other system other than the MD, only for the game to come out on a Master System?

    Remember back in the old days on the DCTP many DC fans said cell shading wouldn't be possible on the PS2 or due to the way DC handled textures, Shenmue would be possible on the PS2, only for it to turn out years later that 80% of Shenmue 1/2 was developed and completed, on a base Saturn. Not that much diff from how some PS2 fans, would say ICO was only possible due to the EE, only for most of its development to have been done on a PS.

    I love it all mind, it's nice to see fans supporting and loyal to their brand, just like with sport, but like with Sports when you start to wear the fanboy hat, common sense goes out the window, but my God are the debates such good fun . Any port is possible, but for sure, just by looking at some games, how they look, run and sound and dread how it would be handled on another system. I mean I think most would know that Dead Rising on the Wii was going to be needed (and pardon the pun) heavily cut back and you would just know, a Snes Thunder Force IV would need changes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Continuing to miss the point
    Again, I DO NOT CARE WHAT CAPCOM SAID IN AN OLD INTERVIEW. I am instead more interested in concrete evidence from people attempting to get something like RE2 running on the actual hardware. And the cold hard truth of the matter is there is a RAM problem. The uncompressed data will not fit into the stock system memory, and there's no guarantee a software compression solution will work due to HWRAM being at capacity. The PS1 got away with this because it had the MDEC to decompress the background images on the fly. Saturn doesn't have that. N64 got away with it because it used lower quality assets and had more RAM with a beefier CPU to brute force it's way through a DCT based compression algorithm.

    And lets be truly honest here, lowering the quality of the 2D backgrounds on a system like the Saturn would not be an acceptable compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    That's my main gripe with the SMS to Game Gear ports too, they really needed to redesign the stages and/or redraw everything. Sonic Pocket Adventure on NGPC was designed with the hardware in mind and it feels great, an underrated gem of a game that shows how good Sonic could have been on 8-bit hardware.
    I don't remember any SMS to Game Gear ports that weren't reworked. Their being even just remixed let alone redrawn was part of the appeal.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Lots of sides will say this or that game isn't possible or can't be done, only for it to turn out, not to be the case and I've been there myself with silly comments on RSG or Batman Returns on the Mega CD, way way back on Video imports chat room (that's how long it was, a bloody chat room) remember in school MD fans saying Sonic, SOR 2, Thunder Force IV wouldn't be possible on the SNES and then you get the Snes lot, saying Mario Kart, Axelay wouldn't be possible and it's all for the birds. Treasure even said Gunstar Heroes wouldn't be possible on any other system other than the MD, only for the game to come out on a Master System?

    Remember back in the old days on the DCTP many DC fans said cell shading wouldn't be possible on the PS2 or due to the way DC handled textures, Shenmue would be possible on the PS2, only for it to turn out years later that 80% of Shenmue 1/2 was developed and completed, on a base Saturn. Not that much diff from how some PS2 fans, would say ICO was only possible due to the EE, only for most of its development to have been done on a PS.

    I love it all mind, it's nice to see fans supporting and loyal to their brand, just like with sport, but like with Sports when you start to wear the fanboy hat, common sense goes out the window, but my God are the debates such good fun . Any port is possible, but for sure, just by looking at some games, how they look, run and sound and dread how it would be handled on another system. I mean I think most would know that Dead Rising on the Wii was going to be needed (and pardon the pun) heavily cut back and you would just know, a Snes Thunder Force IV would need changes
    I get what you're saying, but there's a world of difference with some of these ports. The 8-bit "ports" of Resident Evil are nowhere near the same games, they have completely different engines and assets. So in a sense any game is possible on any hardware if you accept having two different games with the same name.

    Also Gunstar Heroes for the Master System isn't a real game. People have taken the Game Gear version, patched it for SMS mode, then they usually run it in emulators that don't enforce the sprite limit. So it looks pretty good, but it's not accurate to the hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    I don't remember any SMS to Game Gear ports that weren't reworked. Their being even just remixed let alone redrawn was part of the appeal.
    You're right I should have been more specific. They did make some changes, but in both Sonic 1 and 2 I run into areas where I die much more often on the GG than SMS because of the smaller screen size. It's not all bad though, some bugs were fixed in the GG releases. This wasn't just a problem for Sega either. I also find it much harder to play games like SMB or Crystalis on the GBC because you have about half the screen real estate as before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    And lets be truly honest here, lowering the quality of the 2D backgrounds on a system like the Saturn would not be an acceptable compromise.
    If the question was just getting it out on the stores by the deadline, then yeah, it would be an absolutely acceptable compromise. Reducing the colours by half would not have looked THAT bad, assuming they had the original graphics to work with and applied enough dithering. On a CRT with composite cable, which is what the majority of users had, it would have made zero difference.

    And I don't know what memory map they had set up, but if it's just backgrounds, they can put 12 backgrounds in low ram, 4 in vdp2 ram and just swap out one out of the four if they have to display something else, that way everything fits there in full 256 colors. However I don't know what else they used the VDP2 for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    If the question was just getting it out on the stores by the deadline, then yeah, it would be an absolutely acceptable compromise. Reducing the colours by half would not have looked THAT bad, assuming they had the original graphics to work with and applied enough dithering. On a CRT with composite cable, which is what the majority of users had, it would have made zero difference.
    He's already done that. The original graphics on PS1 decompress to 24-bit RGB bitmaps. He's already converted those over to 256 color tilemaps. Going any further is going to to start looking bad. Even if you match PS1 level compression, the largest rooms still require about 1.2MB of RAM for everything (all the backgrounds, collision data, textures, animations, scripting, etc.) So we'd need all of LWRAM available plus some of HWRAM for the other bits. And since the compression is now software based, you'll need some memory available to do that decompression.

    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    And I don't know what memory map they had set up, but if it's just backgrounds, they can put 12 backgrounds in low ram, 4 in vdp2 ram and just swap out one out of the four if they have to display something else, that way everything fits there in full 256 colors. However I don't know what else they used the VDP2 for.
    So now we have LWRAM and VDP2 VRAM almost full with just backgrounds. But we still need somewhere to put all the character models, their animation data, the rest of the room data (collision data, layering data, textures, animations, lighting, etc.). Some of it might fit in HWRAM, but then again there may not be enough room with all the rendering code and buffers he has going on there.

    I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is a very challenging thing to try and overcome. And at the end of the day I wouldn't blame a dev for just using the RAM carts. That's why they exist after all. And I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom would have come to that conclusion as well back in the 90s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    He's already done that. The original graphics on PS1 decompress to 24-bit RGB bitmaps. He's already converted those over to 256 color tilemaps. Going any further is going to to start looking bad. Even if you match PS1 level compression, the largest rooms still require about 1.2MB of RAM for everything (all the backgrounds, collision data, textures, animations, scripting, etc.) So we'd need all of LWRAM available plus some of HWRAM for the other bits. And since the compression is now software based, you'll need some memory available to do that decompression.
    Correct. I just tried it in Photoshop, I took a few screenshots from Resident Evil PSX and converted them to 256 and 128 colors. Going to 256 colors looked fine, I doubt I would even notice during gameplay. It helps that a lot of scenes are already dark. Going to 128 looked terrible. The dithering is obvious, especially near any light source.
    Last edited by axel; 06-27-2022 at 02:29 AM.

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    Just a note, 128 colors is not useful at all. 7 bits is not an even value nor does it pack well. Halving the colors does not halve the storage requirements, you need to square root the colors for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roce View Post
    Just a note, 128 colors is not useful at all. 7 bits is not an even value nor does it pack well. Halving the colors does not halve the storage requirements, you need to square root the colors for that.
    You're right. You'd be dropping down to 16 colors per tile. It would look awful. Halving the resolution would be better, although still not very good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Again, I DO NOT CARE WHAT CAPCOM SAID IN AN OLD INTERVIEW. I am instead more interested in concrete evidence from people attempting to get something like RE2 running on the actual hardware. And the cold hard truth of the matter is there is a RAM problem. The uncompressed data will not fit into the stock system memory, and there's no guarantee a software compression solution will work due to HWRAM being at capacity. The PS1 got away with this because it had the MDEC to decompress the background images on the fly. Saturn doesn't have that. N64 got away with it because it used lower quality assets and had more RAM with a beefier CPU to brute force it's way through a DCT based compression algorithm.

    And lets be truly honest here, lowering the quality of the 2D backgrounds on a system like the Saturn would not be an acceptable compromise.

    The hard truth is you're just going off one person's work , who's looking to take PS code and port it over lock stock and barrel. You haven't the 1st clue, what would have been the game engine used by the Saturn RE2 Port team much less unlike, the person looking to take the PS code over, The RE2 Saturn port team who would have a team of artists looking to downgrade & change the character models, and art assets, to run into RE2 Saturn engine, to make it all possible.

    And unless you speak Japanese and were present in the Capcom/SSM interview, you wouldn't have the 1st clue, on any so-called mistranslation. And if you want to talk of feats of memory.. It can all be done, we had the Laser Disc version of Space Ace on a Stock Amiga and the PC Eng CD-Rom Dracula X on a stock SNES. Anything is possible, if money is involved


    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I get what you're saying, but there's a world of difference with some of these ports. The 8-bit "ports" of Resident Evil are nowhere near the same games, they have completely different engines and assets. So in a sense any game is possible on any hardware if you accept having two different games with the same name.

    Also Gunstar Heroes for the Master System isn't a real game. People have taken the Game Gear version, patched it for SMS mode, then they usually run it in emulators that don't enforce the sprite limit. So it looks pretty good, but it's not accurate to the hardware.
    If people and indeed Capcom looked to port RE to a Gameboy, then anything is possible. I remember MD fans saying Road Rash, would be impossible on the SNES or NES, only for it to come out in the Master System. It even happens this gen.. when Horizon: Forbidden West was shown off, when good old DF's John with his SONY cap on, said this was only possible, due the super fast SSD inside the PS5, only for the game a few months latter to be confined to also a PS4 title


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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is a very challenging thing to try and overcome. And at the end of the day I wouldn't blame a dev for just using the RAM carts. That's why they exist after all. And I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom would have come to that conclusion as well back in the 90s.
    Using the RAM cart limits your user base to people who bought that accessory, or it means you have to release the game with the RAM cart built-in, like Capcom did with all their 2d titles.... and take a hit on the extra cost of the bundled cart.

    Sure, it's possible to stick to the cart.

    It just cuts into your profit margins.

    Quote Originally Posted by roce View Post
    Just a note, 128 colors is not useful at all. 7 bits is not an even value nor does it pack well. Halving the colors does not halve the storage requirements, you need to square root the colors for that.
    You store it in 128 colors in low ram, you pad it out with the least significant bit zeroed out when copying for display. If all the files are half the size then you should have enough space left over for a buffer if you need one.

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Correct. I just tried it in Photoshop, I took a few screenshots from Resident Evil PSX and converted them to 256 and 128 colors. Going to 256 colors looked fine, I doubt I would even notice during gameplay. It helps that a lot of scenes are already dark. Going to 128 looked terrible. The dithering is obvious, especially near any light source.
    I dunno. Looks okay to me. Maybe I just used an unlucky sample (I just googled for a random 320x240 RE2 background image). And keep in mind, this would be viewed through 16-30" CRT through composite cable for the majority of players. That masks away a LOT of the issues.

    Original (yes, it's a jpg) / 256 color / 128 color

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The hard truth is you're just going off one person's work , who's looking to take PS code and port it over lock stock and barrel.
    He's not porting PS Code over. He's writing a custom engine tailored to the Saturn. What's being pulled from the PS1 is the DATA. And he's already doing what he can to convert it into a Saturn friendly format. You do understand the difference between Data and Code right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You haven't the 1st clue, what would have been the game engine used by the Saturn RE2 Port team much less unlike, the person looking to take the PS code over, The RE2 Saturn port team who would have a team of artists looking to downgrade & change the character models, and art assets, to run into RE2 Saturn engine, to make it all possible.
    The person doing this again isn't porting PS1 code over. He's written a custom engine tailored for the Saturn. He's taking data from the PS1 version and converting it over to the Saturn and has already made changes to the models to convert them to quads, reduce polygons where possible, reduce the art assets from 24-bit RGB bitmaps to 256 color tilemaps, etc. Even with all these reductions it still doesn't all fit because Capcom used every bit of the PS1 hardware to make it work.

    The largest room on PS1 is 1MB compressed using hardware accelerated DCT based compression. The entire room data comes to about 5.65MBs decompressed. The images decompress to about 3.5MBs, leaving about another 1.5MB of uncompressed Room data. Now the non image data can probably compress down well enough with the same software method Capcom used on the PS1, but the image data is going to be tricky. So to be able to fit all that into RAM you'd need software compression scheme with about a 6:1 compression ratio that can be decompressed quickly on the fly. While you may be able to do a DCT based algorithm in software, maybe even fast enough to decode 1 image in less than half a second, you may not have enough RAM for the decompression buffers you'll need to pull it off. Now there may be some compression scheme that could work with 256 color tiles, but we still don't know if it can get that good of a compression ratio.

    And again, this is just the room data. There's also a ton of animation data per character (players and enemies), as well as all the assets for the enemies and the player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    And unless you speak Japanese and were present in the Capcom/SSM interview, you wouldn't have the 1st clue, on any so-called mistranslation.
    Post it then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    And if you want to talk of feats of memory.. It can all be done, we had the Laser Disc version of Space Ace on a Stock Amiga and the PC Eng CD-Rom Dracula X on a stock SNES. Anything is possible, if money is involved
    Both those examples have significant alterations and reductions to work on that hardware. If a Saturn port of Resident Evil 2 had to be reduced to that level of quality it would be a laughing stock.

    I would have hoped being banned from the various Saturn related discord servers would have made you reflect on your typical behavior in these kinds of discussions but I guess that was wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Using the RAM cart limits your user base to people who bought that accessory, or it means you have to release the game with the RAM cart built-in, like Capcom did with all their 2d titles.... and take a hit on the extra cost of the bundled cart.

    Sure, it's possible to stick to the cart.

    It just cuts into your profit margins.
    I don't think that would have been much of an issue at the time. Capcom sold at least 200k copies of X-Men vs Street Fighter, and if Ebay, Yahoo Auctions, etc. are to be trusted the 4MB RAM cart copy is by far the most common version. Sure you may not always see it being sold with it's outer box and RAM cart, but you can tell it's the version that came with it due to the lack of rear case art. I think I've only seen the non-bundle version 2 or 3 times in the sea of 4MB bundle copies I've seen over the years. Vampire Savior is a similar deal. The non 4MB bundle is a little more common than X-Men vs Street Fighter, but by the looks of things the 4MB RAM variant seems to outnumber it 2:1 from what I'm seeing. So that's probably close to 300k 4MB RAM cart owners from those games alone. Plus it was sold separately and it there were a lot of third party versions like the Action Replay. By the time RE2 would have been coming out there was probably enough install base to have it use the 4MB RAM cart and not really impact sales, especially considering the first Resident Evil on Saturn only sold maybe 150K in Japan? I highly doubt it sold more than that outside of Japan.


    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    You store it in 128 colors in low ram, you pad it out with the least significant bit zeroed out when copying for display. If all the files are half the size then you should have enough space left over for a buffer if you need one.

    I dunno. Looks okay to me. Maybe I just used an unlucky sample (I just googled for a random 320x240 RE2 background image). And keep in mind, this would be viewed through 16-30" CRT through composite cable for the majority of players. That masks away a LOT of the issues.

    Original (yes, it's a jpg) / 256 color / 128 color
    You seem to be putting a lot of faith in Composite and CRT blending. Here's a comparison of Cinepak vs Truemotion. Cinepak is 24-bit RGB, Truemotion is 15-bit RGB. Both of these are recorded from Composite captures. Even at this level of reduction you can still see obvious color banding and loss of detail even with the encoder applying dithering along the edges. And then there's the issue of general color inaccuracy and having an overall washed out look:



    If it's obvious at 24-bit to 15-bit, it's definitely going to be obvious going to 128 colors.

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