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Thread: Resident Evil 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You know I only said that as a little test....Whatever I say you'll just go against, even when they're your own words, that I used.
    Which is probably from before the developer of this demo started digging into Resident Evil 2 and sharing his findings with myself and others. Just because you're incapable of learning new things doesn't mean the rest of us are.

    EDIT: Yeah, it's from a post I made in 2014, 8 years ago. The person making this demo just started working on it in the past year or so. Seriously TA do you think people can't learn new information and change their opinion over the span of 8 years?
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 07-24-2022 at 01:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    This is a massive fallacy. Resident Evil 2 is not the same game as Resident Evil 1 or Deep Fear. It's much more advanced. Rooms have far more camera angles in them (up to 16), you can have far more 3D characters on screen at any given time, and the animations are quite detailed for the time and there's a ton of them for each 3D Model. The issue isn't one of "Can the Saturn draw this single frame?" Of course it can draw it, that's not the issue. The issue is "Where am I going to put all the data I need to handle this entire room of 16 camera angles, all the 3D characters in it and their animation data?". That's where it becomes much more tricky on the Saturn because you don't have the same unified RAM set up as the PS1, nor do you have hardware accelerated DCT compression for the background images. That's where the RAM cart comes in as a very viable solution to the problem.
    Noob question, but could the MPEG card be used for DCT compressed images? I know MPEG uses a transform codec of its own but no idea if it's similar to what was used in-game. For a game like RE2 I could see that being useful for the cut scenes too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Noob question, but could the MPEG card be used for DCT compressed images? I know MPEG uses a transform codec of its own but no idea if it's similar to what was used in-game. For a game like RE2 I could see that being useful for the cut scenes too.
    Sure, but now your game is tied to an even more expensive and niche add-on than the RAM carts. And for the FMVs Cinepak is more than adequate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Which is probably from before the developer of this demo started digging into Resident Evil 2 and sharing his findings with myself and others.
    The person that got PS RE2 up and running on the Saturn?. That's before one would even factor in what a fully staffed, full team porting team would look to do, with looking to downgrade assets for a Saturn version, or overlooking how one developer looked to bring RE2 to a GameBoy Advanced in 2000/1, much less how we had the game on a Tiger handheld; If Cacpom thought there was money to be on a Saturn port, they'll have done it and released it, not matter what compromises were needed, much like how they got X-Men Vs Streetfighter on the PS.

    In the end the dying Saturn market was more to blame not helping with SEGA looking to have titles for its upcoming system, but I'm sure if I said RE2 needed the 4-MEG Cart, I be told it wouldn'tbe needed and could de done thanks to improvements with Saturn tools and compression and how ADX allowed the Saturn to load both game data and highly compressed sound data simultaneously on the fly in-game
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    That's before one would even factor in what a fully staffed, full team porting team would look to do, with looking to downgrade assets for a Saturn version
    You don't need an entire team of developers to look at the data and realize it's not going to fit into RAM. And he's already significantly downgraded the assets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    or overlooking how one developer looked to bring RE2 to a GameBoy Advanced in 2000/1
    The GBA doesn't have this issue because it can read everything straight from the ROM cart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    much less how we had the game on a Tiger handheld
    Apples to Oranges. It's so heavily modified it's not even really the same game at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    If Cacpom thought there was money to be on a Saturn port, they'll have done it and released it, not matter what compromises were needed, much like how they got X-Men Vs Streetfighter on the PS.

    In the end the dying Saturn market was more to blame not helping with SEGA looking to have titles for its upcoming system
    This isn't what was being discussed. What was being discussed was a technical issue the developer of this demo has found in creating this demo and looking at the original data. The lack of unified RAM and hardware DCT Compression support makes it so you can't fit everything in RAM on the Saturn, so the RAM cart is being used to solve that. You literally went on this massive derailing tangent simply because I made the offhand remark "Supposedly Capcom was using the RAM cart in the in their attempts as well."

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    but I'm sure if I said RE2 needed the 4-MEG Cart, I be told it wouldn'tbe needed and could de done thanks to improvements with Saturn tools and compression and how ADX allowed the Saturn to load both game data and highly compressed sound data simultaneously on the fly in-game
    You can keep telling yourself that, but the reality is you keep throwing yourself into these technical conversations with only your collection of games and old magazines to back up your claims. In a discussion with people who actually do development work on these systems, however, that kind of knowledge doesn't hold up and will only get you so far. Instead of admitting this kind of discussion is beyond your knowledge, you choose to derail the discussion off into a tangent hoping it will eventually get so muddied and diluted that you can finally claim you were correct about something. It's been annoying people on this forum for over a decade now. You're extremely lucky that this forum has tolerated it for this long, because most other communities would have banned you for it by now, as evidenced by the fact you were banned from the Saturn Homebrew discords for this exact kind of behavior.

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    It was a bit dickish to bring up a comment from a few years back and I shouldn't have done that and so I'm sorry.

    I just don't get why you're so intent on going on the memory Cart, when I would imagine Capcom at the time, wouldn't have looked to use it, not look try to port all PS code 100% complete (like the current project) and would have wanted the game to run on a base Saturn, to release the game to the biggest possible user base. The 4-MEG cart wasn't a huge seller in Japan and not released worldwide, that wouldn't have helped matters

    So I feel the best we could have hoped for is for a 4-MEG option for those that had one (with improved graphics loading) but the game would need to run on the base Saturn: no matter the cost to graphics. I would have loved to have to see RE on the Saturn use the 1-MEG Cart to help with loading, but Capcom didn't look to use it at all and I just feel the same would have happened with RE2 on the Saturn. I would have looked to have seen the Quake, House of the Dead, Duke Nukem 3D to all support the 4-MEG no matter if the cart wasn't released outside Japan

    You didn't need to go on interviews or assumptions though. I'm sure even the most Die Hard Saturn import fan would have seen the pretty dramatic downturn in the games and support for the system at the tail end of 1997 and more so early in 1998. You just had to look at the sales charts in Japan, read dedicated Saturn mags or see the lack of new games coming each week at your import shop To see even in Japan, the public we moving on and SEGA and their fans were looking to the DC

    I felt that played the biggest part in the cancellation to the Saturn game sadly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I just don't get why you're so intent on going on the memory Cart
    Because there's not enough Memory with out it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    not look try to port all PS code 100% complete (like the current project)
    For the millionth time, this person is NOT porting ANY of the code from the PS1 version. It is 100% a custom engine tailored to the Saturn hardware. It shares NO code with the PS1 version of Resident Evil 2.

    All that's being used from the PS1 game is the DATA and graphical Asssets. And both of those have already been converted into more Saturn friendly formats and optimized to take up less space. The backgrounds have been converted from 24-bit RGB bitmaps to 256 color tilemaps. Going any further will have a very noticeable hit to quality

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Because there's not enough Memory with out it.


    [SIZE=5]For the millionth time, this person is NOT porting ANY of the code from the PS1 versiony
    He is using 100% full Playstation assets. I'm not on about the game engine at all In just the same way Wipeout 2097 wasn't using the PS engine, but the Duck engine (A totally different custom engine) and where the team knew they had to downgrade PS assets, to get it on the Saturn and I would imagine it was a similar case for Saturn to PS ports.

    At a 'guess', one of the 1st tasks for the Saturn porting team of RE2 would have been to downgrade PS assets: backgrounds and polygon meshes. Then maybe after that looked to cut the number of on screen zombies for 5 to 4 or maybe 3 or the number of camera angles used pre load, to get it all to run a base Saturn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    He is using 100% full Playstation assets.
    No, he isn't. They can't even work as is without some kind of modification done to them. He's using the Playstation data as a starting point and then modifying them to work in his engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I'm not on about the game engine at all
    Then stop referring the PS1 game as code.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    At a 'guess', one of the 1st tasks for the Saturn porting team of RE2 would have been to downgrade PS assets: backgrounds and polygon meshes.
    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, THE DEVELOPER HAS ALREADY DONE THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Then maybe after that looked to cut the number of on screen zombies for 5 to 4 or maybe 3
    So reduce the amount of possible enemies by half? That's not even the real issue here. The issue isn't one of how much you can render on screen, it's an issue of what fits in RAM, and the Zombies are a drop in the bucket compared to the room data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    or the number of camera angles used pre load, to get it all to run a base Saturn.
    This doesn't make any sense. If you reduce the number of camera angles in a room, you reduce the size of the room. If you try to load more in mid room the game is going to have to pause a load more data. And with how much people complain about Symphony of the Night doing that on Saturn, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to deal with in Resident Evil 2 going from one camera angle to another.

    Meanwhile, you know what allows you to port the game with little to no compromises? The RAM cart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    So reduce the amount of possible enemies by half? That's not even the real issue here. The issue isn't one of how much you can render on screen, it's an issue of what fits in RAM, and the Zombies are a drop in the bucket compared to the room data.
    5 to 3 isn't quite half and any reductions help all with memory



    This doesn't make any sense. If you reduce the number of camera angles in a room,
    Reduce the size and reduce the memory footprint and the Saturn user wouldn't know any different.

    Meanwhile, you know what allows you to port the game with little to no compromises? The RAM cart
    And you could say that with a lot of Saturn ports, but at the end of the day publishers will look to get the biggest popular user base ,even SEGA. It would have loved to have to seen HOTD on the Saturn use the 4-MEG cart to get rid of the mid-level loads and the same was the case for RE2 on Saturn because ...

    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME!!!, CAPCOM SAID THEY DIDN'T NEED EXTRA RAM



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    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME!!!, CAPCOM SAID THEY DIDN'T NEED EXTRA RAM
    Capcom failed to port RE2 to Saturn, with or without the extra ram.

    You have not ported any amount of RE2 to Saturn.

    The only person who has successfully ported a POC of RE2 on Saturn says that the extra ram is likely the only way to do it without dropping the quality of the backgrounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    5 to 3 isn't quite half and any reductions help all with memory
    But now the game plays completely differently and is easier. So no, that's not an option on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Reduce the size and reduce the memory footprint and the Saturn user wouldn't know any different.
    You didn't say size you said reduce the number of camera angles. Which that would reduce the size of the rooms and how the game plays. And anyone who played the original game would notice. So again, that's not an option.

    As for reducing the memory footprint of the backgrounds, that again has already been done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    But CAPCOM!
    We weren't talking about Capcom's cancelled port. We were talking about the issue of Resident Evil 2's data not fitting into RAM on the Saturn even after you make changes to reduce it's memory footprint. You completely derailed this and tried to make it about Capcom's port in the 90s. If all you want to do is talk about Capcom's possible port from the 90s, then go make your own thread about it. Quit ruining threads about other people's homebrew projects.

    Honeslty I feel sorry for you at times. You used to be a pretty well liked person in the community and seen as a good source of knowledge. But that was over a decade ago and is no longer the case these days. How big your collection is or how many game magazines you have doesn't really hold any weight these days thanks to the growing homebrew scenes for these systems. When it comes to technical conversations about the capabilities of these systems, how games on them work, etc., the credibility of homebrew devs will trump whatever credibility you have from your collection of games and magazines. You need to come to terms with that and stop destroying threads with your constant derailing and arguing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Capcom failed to port RE2 to Saturn, with or without the extra ram.
    Capcom stopped working on it and moved it to another system. That happened quite a lot back then with games.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    But now the game plays completely differently and is easier. So no, that's not an option on the table.
    You talk like this never happened in ports. There are many ways you can compensate be that zombies needing more bullets to be killed or the player not able to take so many 'bites'. Did Final Fight on the Snes, feature the same number of enemies, on screen and levels, as in the Arcade game?.


    Which that would reduce the size of the rooms and how the game plays
    Yes, if that is what was needed, it happens. It's not like Lobtomy didn't have to make huge cuts to Quake rooms to get it running Saturn, or the big cuts made to get Soldier of Fortune or Unreal Tournament on the DC, where rooms were either changed or cut out completely. PC ports to consoles usually saw massive cuts to get the game to run back then
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Capcom stopped working on it and moved it to another system. That happened quite a lot back then with games.
    Again, this thread isn't about Capcom's supposed porting attempt in the 90s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You talk like this never happened in ports. There are many ways you can compensate be that zombies needing more bullets to be killed or the player not able to take so many 'bites'. Did Final Fight on the Snes, feature the same number of enemies, on screen and levels, as in the Arcade game?.
    It's not an acceptable compromise. The game would be ripped apart by critics and players alike. It's one thing if you're going to a completely different class of system (PS1 to Gameboy/GBA/Tiger Game.com, CPS1 to SNES, etc.), but going from PS1 to Saturn there's no reason to have to reduce the number of enemies on screen or in a room. And that most likely wont help at all with the RAM issue as the Room data itself is what takes up the bulk of memory, not the zombie models.

    And as for Final Fight, that's a completely different kind of game. Reducing enemies in that kind of game is generally more acceptable and is less noticeable. In a game like Resident Evil that's all about building an atmosphere and making it feel like your in a zombie apocalypse, reducing enemies isn't acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Yes, if that is what was needed, it happens.
    No, it's not what's needed. In a game with pre-rendered backgrounds for rooms this is completely unacceptable to do. You're talking about removing entire camera angles from the room which would change how the room is laid out, and possibly end up with nonsensical maps and layouts. Not to mention having to completely rework the rooms and how they connect together in the world would be significantly more work than just using the RAM cart.

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    It wasn't the Final fight though, loads of games (especially Arcade to 16 or 8 Bit ports) had content, sprites Ect all cutout and where it did affect or alter the gameplay, especially in shooters where the consoles simply couldn't handle the number of sprites or bullets on the screen to that of the Arcade plenty of PC to console ports had tons of content and rooms cut out to get on the console, plenty of stuff cut out to get those sims games to work on the consoles like the MD, even up to the XBox and PS2

    Capcom brought X-men Vs Street Fighter to the PS, the gameplay was changed with it's main selling point of the game cut out 'tag team' Capcom did much the same again by bringing Dead Rising to the Wi which saw a huge reduction to the numbers of zombies and the gameplay changed, If there's money to be made, it happens no matter the cutbacks or compromises, Capcom wouldn't care if it made money. The difference was the PS and Wii had a massive userbase to aim too.

    I would say Market conditions played far more of roll and what ultimately killed the port and leave it at that
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