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Thread: Resident Evil 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It wasn't the Final fight though, loads of games (especially Arcade to 16 or 8 Bit ports) had content, sprites Ect all cutout and where it did affect or alter the gameplay, especially in shooters where the consoles simply couldn't handle the number of sprites or bullets on the screen to that of the Arcade plenty of PC to console ports had tons of content and rooms cut out to get on the console, plenty of stuff cut out to get those sims games to work on the consoles like the MD, even up to the XBox and PS2

    Capcom brought X-men Vs Street Fighter to the PS, the gameplay was changed with it's main selling point of the game cut out 'tag team' Capcom did much the same again by bringing Dead Rising to the Wi which saw a huge reduction to the numbers of zombies and the gameplay changed, If there's money to be made, it happens no matter the cutbacks or compromises, Capcom wouldn't care if it made money. The difference was the PS and Wii had a massive userbase to aim too.

    I would say Market conditions played far more of roll and what ultimately killed the port and leave it at that
    And what did Capcom do when they brought X-Men Vs Street Fighter to the Saturn from the arcade? Oh that's right they used the RAM cart because it was available to them and allowed them to put out a better quality product. Now quit bumping this thread with irrelevant bullshit. You're completely missing the point and arguing something that was never being discussed in the first place.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-06-2022 at 01:35 PM.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    And what did Capcom do when they brought X-Men Vs Street Fighter to the Saturn from the arcade? Oh that's right they used the RAM cart because it was available to them and allowed them to put out a better quality product. Now quit bumping this thread with irrelevant bullshit. You're completely missing the point and arguing something that was never being discussed in the first place.
    And what did Capcom do when then brought X Men Vs Street Fighter to the PS ? . When a publisher wants to bring a game to a system, it will happen , no matter the cut backs

    SNK liked tk ti use the Saturh memory cart, not so for the PS
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    And what did Capcom do when they brought X-Men Vs Street Fighter to the Saturn from the arcade? Oh that's right they used the RAM cart because it was available to them and allowed them to put out a better quality product. Now quit bumping this thread with irrelevant bullshit. You're completely missing the point and arguing something that was never being discussed in the first place.
    And what did Capcom do when they brought X Men Vs Street Fighter to the PS ? . When a publisher wants to bring a game to a system, it will happen , no matter the cut backs

    SNK liked to use the Saturh memory cart, not so for the PS
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 08-06-2022 at 02:18 PM.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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    Presented for your pleasure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    And what did Capcom do when then brought X Men Vs Street Fighter to the PS ? . When a publisher wants to bring a game to a system, it will happen , no matter the cut backs

    SNK liked tk ti use the Saturh memory cart, not so for the PS
    Because there is no RAM expansion for the PS1 and no way to make one. Now again, stop bringing up this irrelevant bullshit and derailing this thread further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Because there is no RAM expansion for the PS1 and no way to make one. Now again, stop bringing up this irrelevant bullshit and derailing this thread further.

    X-Men Vs SF came to the PS, despite Capcom saying it would be impossible on the PS and how it was a Saturn exclusive, where the gameplay was changed with its main selling point absent, that's the point.
    Capcom thought it could make money and so looked to get past any technical hurdles, even at the cost of the core gameplay. So why do you think it would have not acceptable to reduce the Zombie count in RE2, When Capcom made lots of changes to get games running on consoles even at the cost of gameplay of the original

    It's not like RE on the Saturn used the 1-MEG cart to make it a better product.
    Hardly any Saturn developers looked to use the 1/4 Meg RAM carts for the more mainstream games and just looked to use the base Saturn to get the possible sales, even SEGA sadly.
    The N64 did a much better job, but nearly every game that used the RAM pak, needed to run on the base unit to get to the biggest possible userbase


    Would have loved to seen RE2 on the Saturn, but the system was all but dead.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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    Presented for your pleasure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    X-Men Vs SF came to the PS, despite Capcom saying it would be impossible on the PS and how it was a Saturn exclusive, where the gameplay was changed with its main selling point absent, that's the point.
    Capcom thought it could make money and so looked to get past any technical hurdles, even at the cost of the core gameplay.
    That was because their hands were tied and they had no other option if they wanted to sell that game outside of Japan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    So why do you think it would have not acceptable to reduce the Zombie count in RE2, When Capcom made lots of changes to get games running on consoles even at the cost of gameplay of the original
    Because it's not the same situation. There's no need to make those kind of crippling compromises when there's an acceptable solution available with the RAM cart. And Capcom showed time and time again that they had no issue with using that solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It's not like RE on the Saturn used the 1-MEG cart to make a better product.
    Hardly any Saturn developers looked to use the 1/4 Meg RAM carts for the more mainstream games and just looked to use the base Saturn to get the possible sales, even SEGA sadly.
    Resident Evil 1 is not the same as Resident Evil 2. There's significantly less camera angles per room which is the main issue here, not number of enemies on screen. So the first game doesn't have this memory problem as it has far less data to store in RAM at any given moment. Stop making apples to oranges comparisons.

    As for possible sales, that didn't stop Capcom from using the RAM cart on any other game they used it on.

    Now, stop arguing this in this thread. This is supposed to be a thread about a homebrew project. It's not for you to argue for the sake of arguing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    This is a massive fallacy. Resident Evil 2 is not the same game as Resident Evil 1 or Deep Fear. It's much more advanced. Rooms have far more camera angles in them (up to 16), you can have far more 3D characters on screen at any given time, and the animations are quite detailed for the time and there's a ton of them for each 3D Model. The issue isn't one of "Can the Saturn draw this single frame?" Of course it can draw it, that's not the issue. The issue is "Where am I going to put all the data I need to handle this entire room of 16 camera angles, all the 3D characters in it and their animation data?". That's where it becomes much more tricky on the Saturn because you don't have the same unified RAM set up as the PS1, nor do you have hardware accelerated DCT compression for the background images. That's where the RAM cart comes in as a very viable solution to the problem.
    oh God , dude, stop embarrassing yourself, Sega Saturn can run any PS1 game especially an absolutely simple game like RE2. Don't try to keep inventing problems and weaknesses where they don't exist. you must admit you're being a hater about it or be free to prove that RE2 is more demanding than Deep Fear.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-10-2022 at 09:30 AM. Reason: grammatical errors

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    there are on the internet many supposed ripped models of Leon RE2 N64 and PS1. PS1 version has 442 poly N64 1031 poly but inferior textures,I prefer the ps1 approach , this has always been common in the gaming world, texture-polygon relationship. More textures in low polygon models x worse textures in higher poly models. we see this easily in virtua fighter 1 vs Virtua fighter 2 where the first game has higher polygon counts in the models both on Sega Saturn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    oh God , dude, stop embarrassing yourself, Sega Saturn can run any PS1 game especially an absolutely simple game like RE2. Don't try to keep inventing problems and weaknesses where they don't exist. you must admit you're being a hater about it or be free to prove that RE2 is more demanding than Deep Fear.
    I'm sorry but have you actually programmed anything for either platform? Reverse Engineered the room data formats for any of the games? No, you haven't. I have programmed stuff on the Saturn and have been discussing things with the person behind this homebrew engine and know full well the limitations and issues he's ran into with it.

    All you need to do is look at the data to realize RE2 requires a lot more memory than RE1 or Deep Fear. Resident Evil 1 caps the amount of unique camera angles per room at 8. Deep Fear I believe is even less than that with a lot more loading breaks. You can compare data from the Saturn and PS1 versions of the first game and see that the Saturn files take up a lot more space than the PS1 versions. This is because the PS1 is using the MDEC to help compress the backgrounds using JPEG like compression which compresses down better. Saturn doesn't have that luxury and has to rely on software compression and other solutions which don't save as much memory.

    Resident Evil 2 doubles the amount of camera angles per room up to 16 camera angles per room. That effectively doubles the memory footprint. On PS1 this isn't a big issue as we have 2MB of Unified RAM, and we have the MDEC to help compress things down again. Saturn we have 2x 1MB banks of RAM, with one being significantly slower than the other. We also don't have hardware to help with compression. Considering RE1's Room data was already pushing the limits of memory on Saturn, RE2 is definitely going to push us over what we have to work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    there are on the internet many supposed ripped models of Leon RE2 N64 and PS1. PS1 version has 442 poly N64 1031 poly but inferior textures,I prefer the ps1 approach , this has always been common in the gaming world, texture-polygon relationship. More textures in low polygon models x worse textures in higher poly models. we see this easily in virtua fighter 1 vs Virtua fighter 2 where the first game has higher polygon counts in the models both on Sega Saturn.
    Polygons aren't the issue, it's the memory to store the backgrounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Polygons aren't the issue, it's the memory to store the backgrounds.
    how much memory are we talking about here? you are implying that the saturn has a memory deficit in relation to the other console,I swear it's the first time I've heard anything like this. how much memory are we talking about and how that would supposedly be unavoidable ?

    definitely the amount of memory is the same, I go beyond it is greater on the Sega Saturn for sure, with the correct trade offs it is able to make the game even more beautiful on the Sega's console. 16 angles per room hmm why not 15, 14, would it make a difference if I reduced it to 8 ? do we have so many angles in every room on the game ? hmm Sorry I won't prolong this debate, it didn't convince me. the Saturn is capable of running without major trade offs save for shadows and alpha effects any PS1 game at worst with a lower average frame rate, nothing less and nothing more than that. I will say that the Saturn due to its cart can even run the tekken tag, the arcade that runs the tekken tag is basically a ps1 with more video memory, memory that the ps1 lacked for it to dream of this game. each with their opinion.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-10-2022 at 12:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    how much memory are we talking about here? you are implying that the saturn has a memory deficit in relation to the other console,I swear it's the first time I've heard anything like this. how much memory are we talking about and how that would supposedly be unavoidable ?
    The background graphic data for the largest room on PS1 is about 1MB, with MDEC compression. That's just the backgrounds, there's still all the other data (room entity and collision data, player models, enemy models, animations, etc.) which comes to about 1.25-1.5MB I believe? On PS1 you have 2MB of Unified RAM. On Saturn it's split into 2 1MB Banks. In this current engine HWRAM (the faster bank) is pretty much full with the main program and all the buffers for the rendering pipeline. So we really only have the remaining 1MB of LWRAM to store the data in. Even if we used the PS1 compressed data, that would fill LWRAM and we'd need space for the rest of the data. And we'd need a decompression buffer somewhere to decompress it to in HWRAM, which we don't have space for.

    But, we don't have an MDEC to decompress for us, so we need to use something else, which means our background data takes up more space due to less effective forms of compression. The developer has it so each background takes up about 75KB by converting them to 256 color tilemaps instead of the 24-bit RGB bitmaps they originally were. With 16 of those you need about 1.2MB to store an entire room's background image data plus space for other data. That's not going to fit in LWRAM. Hence why you need something like the RAM cart to give you more space, which is why the developer is using it.

    It basically boils down to the fact that the PS1 has hardware to help it with these kind of things. There's the MDEC to handle JPEG like compression for it, and the GTE to help it do 3D calculations. Saturn doesn't have either and has to have it's CPUs do it, which requires both CPU resources and more memory to pull it off.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    definitely the amount of memory is the same, I go beyond it is greater on the Sega Saturn for sure, with the correct trade offs it is able to make the game even more beautiful on the Sega's console. 16 angles per room hmm why not 15, 14, would it make a difference if I reduced it to 8 ? do we have so many angles in every room on the game ?
    Yes, there are rooms with 16 camera angles in them, some of the first areas in the game have that many angles. And no, you can't remove or reduce them, as that would make it so the rooms no longer made sense. Each angle shows a different part of the room. If you remove some of them you get gaps in the room and the player will seem to skip around as they walk through the room.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-10-2022 at 12:26 PM.

  12. #102
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    edit wrong forum.
    Last edited by Leynos; 08-10-2022 at 04:22 PM.

    Life?!...What console is that on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Anything can be ported to anything if they wish it. Period. Why there is Witcher 3 on Switch. If DC was successful enough and Capcom thought it was worth porting they would have.
    I'm not saying it can't be ported. I'm saying it's not as easy as some people think and that there is a memory problem on Saturn. Hence why the RAM cart is needed.

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    I responded to the wrong topic. My bad I thought I was responding to AMD in a Dreamcast topic. DOH! lol

    Life?!...What console is that on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I'm not saying it can't be ported. I'm saying it's not as easy as some people think and that there is a memory problem on Saturn. Hence why the RAM cart is needed.
    You are patient as hell. I would have given up explaining this about five pages ago.

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