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Thread: Resident Evil 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I would have given up explaining this about five pages ago.
    it's not about patience ok I understood what he said in the first explanation, I just don't agree. I'm not so layman, he wants to add extra complexity to this a game, truth be told, it's a character walking on photos.

    the rest are purely speculative bases I respect it because I also make conjectures about old consoles and games that were never released for them, speculating what it would look like. But I can guarantee that in a team of professional developers they would have several approaches to deal with these supposed limitations of Lwram and Hwram. When talking about memory, quantity is what matters, speed can be resolved. Saturn and PS1 have the same amount, in fact the Saturn has even more, both vanilla and adding the cartridge, which was only officially used for a single 3D game (Final Fight) if more 3D games made use of the cartridge we would be talking about graphics in another league.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-10-2022 at 01:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it's not about patience ok I understood what he said in the first explanation, I just don't agree. I'm not so layman, he wants to add extra complexity to this a game, truth be told, it's a character walking on photos.
    Again, the issue isn't the complexity of drawing models on top of 2D backgrounds. It's having space to store all the 2D backgrounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the rest are purely speculative bases I respect it because I also make conjectures about old consoles and games that were never released for them, speculating what it would look like. But I can guarantee that in a team of professional developers they would have several approaches to deal with these supposed limitations of Lwram and Hwram. When talking about memory, quantity is what matters, speed can be resolved. Saturn and PS1 have the same amount, in fact the Saturn has even more, both vanilla and adding the cartridge, which was only officially used for a single 3D game (Final Fight) if more 3D games made use of the cartridge we would be talking about graphics in another league.
    And this is a common pitfall people who have never programmed anything fall into. Yes on paper Saturn and PS1 have 2MB of Main RAM, but that doesn't mean it's the same setup and using it is the same. On PS1 you have 2MB of contiguous RAM that you can use as you like. On Saturn it's split between two different 1MB banks that are not contiguous. LWRAM is at address space 0x00200000-002FFFFF. This memory is 16-bit DRAM and is significantly slower making it not so useful to use for running code, doing fast manipulations, etc. It's best use is for static data that's not going to change a lot. HWRAM is at address space 0x06000000 - 0x060FFFFF. This memory is 32-bit SDRAM and is a lot faster. It's more ideal for running your code in, and used for things that require a lot of fast data manipulation. In this current engine, HWRAM is full from all the buffers used for 3D rendering, the animation data, etc. LWRAM is all that remains, and it's not enough to store part of the Room data for the largest compressed room. Sure, maybe we could rework the rendering engine to not need all of HWRAM, to let us store the rest of the data that doesn't fit into LWRAM, but that still doesn't solve the problem.

    On PS1 you have the MDEC to decompress the backgrounds for you. It can decompress them and put them in VRAM for you, you don't need to have decompression buffers in main RAM to decompress to. On Saturn you would need space in RAM for buffers to do the decompression in software, thus taking up more space. We're already struggling to fit this all in RAM without the decompression buffer. If we bring the decompression buffer into the mix, we end up running out of memory. And that's not factoring in that a software based compression scheme wouldn't have as good of a compression ratio as the PS1's MDEC compression. So that compressed data that's filling all of LWRAM probably would end up larger than LWRAM, and it wouldn't be able to fit.

    Eventually it hits a point where it just makes more sense to use the RAM cartridge to solve this problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I'm sorry but have you actually programmed anything for either platform? Reverse Engineered the room data formats for any of the games? No, you haven't. I have programmed stuff on the Saturn and have been discussing things with the person behind this homebrew engine and know full well the limitations and issues he's ran into with it.

    All you need to do is look at the data to realize RE2 requires a lot more memory than RE1 or Deep Fear. Resident Evil 1 caps the amount of unique camera angles per room at 8. Deep Fear I believe is even less than that with a lot more loading breaks. You can compare data from the Saturn and PS1 versions of the first game and see that the Saturn files take up a lot more space than the PS1 versions. This is because the PS1 is using the MDEC to help compress the backgrounds using JPEG like compression which compresses down better. Saturn doesn't have that luxury and has to rely on software compression and other solutions which don't save as much memory.

    Resident Evil 2 doubles the amount of camera angles per room up to 16 camera angles per room. That effectively doubles the memory footprint. On PS1 this isn't a big issue as we have 2MB of Unified RAM, and we have the MDEC to help compress things down again. Saturn we have 2x 1MB banks of RAM, with one being significantly slower than the other. We also don't have hardware to help with compression. Considering RE1's Room data was already pushing the limits of memory on Saturn, RE2 is definitely going to push us over what we have to work with.



    Polygons aren't the issue, it's the memory to store the backgrounds.
    I think he was being sarcastic, mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edek View Post
    I think he was being sarcastic, mate.
    Maybe you should go look at his past and current behavior and then tell me if you really think he was being sarcastic.

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    AMD is just a thick-headed idiot that is possibly on drugs.

    Life?!...What console is that on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Now, stop arguing this in this thread.
    Yet it's for you to argue? Nice elitism that

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    how much memory are we talking about here? you are implying that the saturn has a memory deficit in relation to the other console,I swear it's the first time I've heard anything like this. how much memory are we talking about and how that would supposedly be unavoidable ?.
    One used to read back in the day that Saturn had the memory advantage and that was why Capcom CPS2 ports were better on Saturn, with more animation and effects; compare SF Alpha 2 on both systems and see vast differences in animation and effects like reflections.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post

    One used to read back in the day that Saturn had the memory advantage and that was why Capcom CPS2 ports were better on Saturn, with more animation and effects; compare SF Alpha 2 on both systems and see vast differences in animation and effects like reflections.


    Those were the days
    he uses the fallacy of authority just because he program homebrew, but as I said there is a contradiction here I categorically reject the idea that the Sega Saturn cannot handle any PS1 game, I accept that the Saturn version may present a deficit in relation to light effects, shadows and transparency, as this is plausible since the vdp-1 is more archaic than the video card of the PS1, this is not a demerit for Sega, because even PC vga at the time, each brand offered different effects even being vga of the same level both in price and in computing power.

    I also accept that a port of the Sega Saturn will eventually have a lower average frame rate than the PS1. It ended up at these two points.

    Now the opposite is true: how much memory on the PS1 to deal with Dungeons and Dragon? to deal with Dead or Alive mult backgrounds? No, they made a simpler version (pretty no doubt , but simpler) even Saturn exclusive games seem difficult to me on ps1, I've never seen anything like Bulk Slash, groove on fight,Guardian Heroes, oh god ps1 has part of the map removed in Exumed where is the memory advantage where are the exemples ? now I have to read about supposed memory deficit Saturn, just laughing

    I like TrekkiesUnite118 I just think he should say like this: you're right I exaggerated things, that things happen. I got carried away by my personal understanding and forgot that these big companies would know how to deal with issues.

    I think this matter is over, whoever wants to can follow my opinion or his or even have a third opinion different from the two, in short, it is everyone's right, free thought.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-11-2022 at 08:04 AM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Yet it's for you to argue? Nice elitism that
    I'm not the one who's continuing to argue something that was never being debated in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    One used to read back in the day that Saturn had the memory advantage and that was why Capcom CPS2 ports were better on Saturn, with more animation and effects; compare SF Alpha 2 on both systems and see vast differences in animation and effects like reflections.
    You do realize what memory they were talking about right? Capcom's CPS2 ports were better on Saturn because Saturn's Video Hardware and Memory setup lends itself better to those kinds of games. On Saturn you have 1.5MB of VRAM and on PS1 you have 1MB of VRAM. But hold on, it's not as cut and dry as you think. On Saturn memory is split evenly between VDP1, VDP2, and hardware frame buffers. On PS1 you have 1MB of Unified VRAM to use as you like.

    So for a 3D game that's heavy in polygon usage, Saturn is going to be at a disadvantage because 1/3 of it's VRAM is effectively useless if it can't find a use for VDP2. Frame buffers always take up 512KB as well so you can't adjust your frame buffer sizes to free up more space either. You're stuck at 512KB for your textures, polygons, etc.

    But, when we get to a 2D Game like Street Fighter Alpha 2, things change. VDP2 is very useful here so we can use that 512KB of VRAM to it's fullest. VDP1 now only has to draw character sprites and some minor details here and there, so it's VRAM can be used fully for just that. Since Saturn has hardware frame buffers, you don't need to dedicate any of VDP1's VRAM to being a frame buffer either. Meanwhile on PS1 you only have 1MB of unified VRAM to work with. A chunk of that needs to be dedicated to your frame buffer since you don't have hardware frame buffers like you have on Saturn. So after you remove the Frame buffer, you end up with less total memory to use for both backgrounds and sprites. So things need to get cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    he uses the fallacy of authority just because he program homebrew, but as I said there is a contradiction here I categorically reject the idea that the Sega Saturn cannot handle any PS1 game, I accept that the Saturn version may present a deficit in relation to light effects, shadows and transparency, as this is plausible since the vdp-1 is more archaic than the video card of the PS1, this is not a demerit for Sega, because even PC vga at the time, each brand offered different effects even being vga of the same level both in price and in computing power.
    I didn't say the Saturn couldn't handle a game like Resident Evil 2, I said there's an issue with Memory that requires the RAM cart to effectively overcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Now the opposite is true: how much memory on the PS1 to deal with Dungeons and Dragon? to deal with Dead or Alive mult backgrounds? No, they made a simpler version (pretty no doubt , but simpler) even Saturn exclusive games seem difficult to me on ps1, I've never seen anything like Bulk Slash, groove on fight,Guardian Heroes, oh god ps1 has part of the map removed in Exumed where is the memory advantage where are the exemples ? now I have to read about supposed memory deficit Saturn, just laughing
    See my reply above to TA. You need to understand the difference between effectively usable memory, and total memory. Dead or Alive, Bulk Slash, and Guardian Heroes use VDP2 heavily along with VDP1. So they can use that 1.5MB of total VRAM to their fullest. Dungeons and Dragons and Grove on Fight also lend themselves to this well enough, but they also require additional RAM from the RAM carts to run on Saturn.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I like TrekkiesUnite118 I just think he should say like this: you're right I exaggerated things, that things happen. I got carried away by my personal understanding and forgot that these big companies would know how to deal with issues.
    You realize big companies like Capcom solved this exact memory issue with the RAM carts right?

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I didn't say the Saturn couldn't handle a game like Resident Evil 2, I said there's an issue with Memory that requires the RAM cart to effectively overcome.

    See my reply above to TA. You need to understand the difference between effectively usable memory, and total memory. Dead or Alive, Bulk Slash, and Guardian Heroes use VDP2 heavily along with VDP1. So they can use that 1.5MB of total VRAM to their fullest.
    I will take a different approach, I'm here to learn . What about PowerSlave ? you know the ps1 version lacks parts of the map, metal slug ? for TA you used vdp-2 argument for street fighter alpha 2 the same argument goes for Metal Slug ? ok. this argument if you analyze it it proves our point (Saturn do not have a memory issue but more memory, at least in these types of games) and denies yours. But then you shifted the argument to 3D (then lwram, hwram issue only applies to 3d) a contradiction of what you said in the Dreamcast thread, see it:

    ''
    This is an apples to oranges comparison on multiple levels. The most egregious one being that Resident Evil 2 relies on pre-rendered graphics, while Resident Evil 4 relies on real-time graphics. The memory requirements for those are two different things, pre-rendered is going to be far more wasteful in memory. When rendering in real time you can do things like reduce the map model complexity, texture quality, texture variety, etc. to get your memory footprint down without having as severe of an impact as you would if you had to cut entire backgrounds out of a pre-rendered map in RE2 ''

    this was a response to me when I said that the Dreamcast had not only slower memory but less memory than the consoles that came after it.

    So to simplify. Does this Saturn issue only apply to RE-style games? where character walks over photos, or does it also apply to true 3d games ? because RE2 is not 3D.

    Croc, Tomb Raider, wipeout, battle arena toshiden, destruction derb, Die Hard Trilogy, world league soccer 98. In any of these 7 games I mentioned can you show me a cut or defect coming from lwram and hwram? point and say, look at this here and there it was not possible because it bumped into the memory.

    this is question number 1, the question number 2 is the vdp-2 could not be used somehow in RE2 to save memory and thus not require the cartridge?
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-11-2022 at 10:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    What about PowerSlave ? you know the ps1 version lacks parts of the map,
    The changes to the maps in the PS1 version are most likely to help improve overall performance by reducing what's drawn on screen at a given time. While the Saturn may show more on screen, it also slows down a lot more. The PS1 port came later and they probably went "Hey this are chugged a bit on Saturn, let's tweak it so it runs better."

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    metal slug ? for TA you used vdp-2 argument for street fighter alpha 2 the same argument goes for Metal Slug ? ok. this argument if you analyze it it proves our point (Saturn do not have a memory issue but more memory, at least in these types of games) and denies yours.
    You need to take a step back and understand what kind of memory is being discussed and how it's being used. I was talking about Video RAM in regards to 2D games, which for Street Fighter Alpha there is an advantage that can be effectively used on Saturn to allow for more frames of animation, details, etc.. For Metal Slug it can also help, but even that game needs more Memory and requires the 1MB RAM cart to run so it can load the entire level in without having to load mid level like the PS1 version does.


    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    But then you shifted the argument to 3D (then lwram, hwram issue only applies to 3d) a contradiction of what you said in the Dreamcast thread, see it:

    ''
    This is an apples to oranges comparison on multiple levels. The most egregious one being that Resident Evil 2 relies on pre-rendered graphics, while Resident Evil 4 relies on real-time graphics. The memory requirements for those are two different things, pre-rendered is going to be far more wasteful in memory. When rendering in real time you can do things like reduce the map model complexity, texture quality, texture variety, etc. to get your memory footprint down without having as severe of an impact as you would if you had to cut entire backgrounds out of a pre-rendered map in RE2 ''

    this was a response to me when I said that the Dreamcast had not only slower memory but less memory than the consoles that came after it.
    I did not say the memory issue only applies to 3D. It entirely depends on how your game uses memory. For Resident Evil 2 a lot of memory is needed to store the pre-rendered backgrounds for each room. And in many cases those files need more than 1MB of RAM, which is more than you can store in either of Saturn's main memory banks. It's split up and non-contiguous. So if you have a file bigger than 1MB, it wont fit and you can't load it into RAM. Trying to split it up becomes tricky and hard to work around as well. And that's with compression, uncompressed they take up even more space.

    As for the post in the Dreamcast thread, I was explaining to you the apples to oranges comparison you were making. Resident Evil 4 on 6th Gen consoles is an entirely different beast altogether. It doesn't rely on pre-rendered backgrounds and instead renders things in real time. There's more wiggle room to reduce your memory footprint there, and you have a lot more memory to work with on 6th gen consoles in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    So to simplify. Does this Saturn issue only apply to RE-style games? where character walks over photos, or does it also apply to true 3d games ? because RE2 is not 3D.
    The answer isn't simple. It depends on what each game is doing and how it handles it's memory. For RE2 we do have a memory problem because each room has 16 pre-rendered backgrounds that don't fit in 1MB. On PS1 you have 2MB of unified contiguous memory so if a file is say 1.2MB, you can still load it into RAM and it will fit. On Saturn the memory is split and non-contiguous, so you can't load it in if it doesn't fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Croc, Tomb Raider, wipeout, battle arena toshiden, destruction derb, Die Hard Trilogy, world league soccer 98. In any of these 7 games I mentioned can you show me a cut or defect coming from lwram and hwram? point and say, look at this here and there it was not possible because it bumped into the memory.
    Your question doesn't make any sense. Do you want to know how the games are using RAM? Open them up in an emulator and dump the memory locations yourself. All they'll tell you is how those particular games manage their memory. They're not going to tell you "Oh ha look here! You can load 1.2MB of data into 1MB of RAM!" which is what you're trying to prove here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the question number 2 is the vdp-2 could not be used somehow in RE2 to save memory and thus not require the cartridge?
    You've misunderstood. VDP2 isn't being used to save memory. It's being used to draw the background layers. For games like Street Fighter Alpha it simply means we have more usable VRAM available to use to draw things, while on PS1 we have less to work with. So that means we have more space to store more animations, tiles, etc. in VRAM.

    For RE2 VRAM isn't the issue, it's main RAM. You're not going to have all the pre-rendered backgrounds in VRAM at a time, you're going to have the one you're currently displaying. If you keep the backgrounds as 24-bit Bitmaps, one background will fill all of VDP2 VRAM. If you switch them to tilemaps, you can free up more space, but most likely you'll want to use that freed up space to draw additional layers on VDP2, not store more backgrounds. So if you have a room with 16 backgrounds, 1 is currently being drawn and is in VRAM, the other 15 are in main RAM to be swapped out as you walk through the room and the camera angle changes. The problem is we barely have enough space to store all of those backgrounds in LWRAM with MDEC style compression. But we can't use that kind of compression on Saturn as the Saturn doesn't have an MDEC to decompress it. So we have to use other forms that don't compress as well. This ends up with the backgrounds taking up 1.2MBs. LWRAM is 1MB, you can't fit more than 1MB in it, so our backgrounds wont fit there. HWRAM is 1MB, so it wont fit there either. LWRAM and HWRAM are not contiguous either, so we can't just have it spill over. We'd need to manually split and put the rest in HWRAM, which that starts to get messy. But, we still have other room data, player and enemy data, etc. that we need to load in. Where are we going to put that? We're running out of space when we factor in the 3D rendering pipeline and the main program in HWRAM. So the RAM cart is necessary.

    Your problem is you want and expect everything to follow simple black and white rules that you can universally apply to every game and situation. Unfortunately it's not that simple and it's not that black and white. It's very gray. Each game is different and how it uses memory, draws graphics, etc. is different. While drawing 3D models on top a photo may be right up Saturn's alley with VDP1 and VDP2, handling JPEG compression isn't something it's good at. Storing 16 backgrounds in RAM becomes a lot trickier without this form of compression and without a contiguous single bank of memory. Until you understand this kind of nuance, you have no business trying to argue technical specs and what a console is capable of.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-11-2022 at 12:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    The changes to the maps in the PS1 version are most likely to help improve overall performance by reducing what's drawn on screen at a given time. While the Saturn may show more on screen, it also slows down a lot more. The PS1 port came later and they probably went "Hey this are chugged a bit on Saturn, let's tweak it so it runs better."



    You need to take a step back and understand what kind of memory is being discussed and how it's being used. I was talking about Video RAM in regards to 2D games, which for Street Fighter Alpha there is an advantage that can be effectively used on Saturn to allow for more frames of animation, details, etc.. For Metal Slug it can also help, but even that game needs more Memory and requires the 1MB RAM cart to run so it can load the entire level in without having to load mid level like the PS1 version does.




    I did not say the memory issue only applies to 3D. It entirely depends on how your game uses memory. For Resident Evil 2 a lot of memory is needed to store the pre-rendered backgrounds for each room. And in many cases those files need more than 1MB of RAM, which is more than you can store in either of Saturn's main memory banks. It's split up and non-contiguous. So if you have a file bigger than 1MB, it wont fit and you can't load it into RAM. Trying to split it up becomes tricky and hard to work around as well. And that's with compression, uncompressed they take up even more space.

    As for the post in the Dreamcast thread, I was explaining to you the apples to oranges comparison you were making. Resident Evil 4 on 6th Gen consoles is an entirely different beast altogether. It doesn't rely on pre-rendered backgrounds and instead renders things in real time. There's more wiggle room to reduce your memory footprint there, and you have a lot more memory to work with on 6th gen consoles in general.




    The answer isn't simple. It depends on what each game is doing and how it handles it's memory. For RE2 we do have a memory problem because each room has 16 pre-rendered backgrounds that don't fit in 1MB. On PS1 you have 2MB of unified contiguous memory so if a file is say 1.2MB, you can still load it into RAM and it will fit. On Saturn the memory is split and non-contiguous, so you can't load it in if it doesn't fit.



    Your question doesn't make any sense. Do you want to know how the games are using RAM? Open them up in an emulator and dump the memory locations yourself. All they'll tell you is how those particular games manage their memory. They're not going to tell you "Oh ha look here! You can load 1.2MB of data into 1MB of RAM!" which is what you're trying to prove here.


    You've misunderstood. VDP2 isn't being used to save memory. It's being used to draw the background layers. For games like Street Fighter Alpha it simply means we have more usable VRAM available to use to draw things, while on PS1 we have less to work with. So that means we have more space to store more animations, tiles, etc. in VRAM.

    For RE2 VRAM isn't the issue, it's main RAM. You're not going to have all the pre-rendered backgrounds in VRAM at a time, you're going to have the one you're currently displaying. If you keep the backgrounds as 24-bit Bitmaps, one background will fill all of VDP2 VRAM. If you switch them to tilemaps, you can free up more space, but most likely you'll want to use that freed up space to draw additional layers on VDP2, not store more backgrounds. So if you have a room with 16 backgrounds, 1 is currently being drawn and is in VRAM, the other 15 are in main RAM to be swapped out as you walk through the room and the camera angle changes. The problem is we barely have enough space to store all of those backgrounds in LWRAM with MDEC style compression. But we can't use that kind of compression on Saturn as the Saturn doesn't have an MDEC to decompress it. So we have to use other forms that don't compress as well. This ends up with the backgrounds taking up 1.2MBs. LWRAM is 1MB, you can't fit more than 1MB in it, so our backgrounds wont fit there. HWRAM is 1MB, so it wont fit there either. LWRAM and HWRAM are not contiguous either, so we can't just have it spill over. We'd need to manually split and put the rest in HWRAM, which that starts to get messy. But, we still have other room data, player and enemy data, etc. that we need to load in. Where are we going to put that? We're running out of space when we factor in the 3D rendering pipeline and the main program in HWRAM. So the RAM cart is necessary.

    Your problem is you want and expect everything to follow simple black and white rules that you can universally apply to every game and situation. Unfortunately it's not that simple and it's not that black and white. It's very gray. Each game is different and how it uses memory, draws graphics, etc. is different. While drawing 3D models on top a photo may be right up Saturn's alley with VDP1 and VDP2, handling JPEG compression isn't something it's good at. Storing 16 backgrounds in RAM becomes a lot trickier without this form of compression and without a contiguous single bank of memory. Until you understand this kind of nuance, you have no business trying to argue technical specs and what a console is capable of.
    we're not going to come to an agreement from what I see. we both agree that RE2 would be possible on the Saturn and at least we agreed on that.

    the onus of proving that saturn has the main memory issue is not mine, you say for sure the saturn couldn't handle the photos requiring the ram cartridge,
    as a solution ok when we present you with real games, where the Saturn takes advantage of having more memory (without the cartridge: metal slug, sfz2, silhouette Mirage) you use rhetoric that this type of 2d game favors the Saturn and the issue is to 3d games. When I show you 7 polygonal games (ps1-Saturn) and I ask you to point out an issue coming from memory, you don't talk.

    Based on Occam's razor we won't agree because you increase agents and the more complex an argument the more false it gets. So I close here.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-11-2022 at 01:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    we're not going to come to an agreement from what I see.
    Because you refuse to accept reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    without the cartridge: metal slug
    Metal Slug requires the 1MB RAM cartridge.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the onus of proving that saturn has the main memory issue is not mine, you say for sure the saturn couldn't handle the photos requiring the ram cartridge,
    as a solution, when we present you with real games, where the Saturn takes advantage of having more memory (without the cartridge: metal slug, sfz2, silhouette Mirage) you use rhetoric that this type of 2d game favors the Saturn and the issue is to 3d games. When I show you 7 polygonal games (ps1´saturn) and I ask you to point out an issue coming from memory, you don't talk.
    The problem as stated is that you don't understand the nuance of what's being discussed and keep trying to make apples to oranges comparisons. The 2D Games you're bringing up use 4bpp tilemaps for their backgrounds and 4bpp sprites. They don't have 16 320x240@24bpp bitmaps that they have to swap into VRAM as the player traverses through the room. They have a couple sets of 4bpp tiles and a few simple tilemaps for VDP2, and some 4bpp sprites. That takes up far less space and doesn't have the overhead of running a 3D engine over top of it. The 3D games you brought up are again doing different things and their performance issues on Saturn are related to different issues. You fail to understand that each game is different and what it requires is different. What works for a game like Street Fighter Alpha doesn't necessarily carry over and apply to a game like Resident Evil 2, or Tomb Raider. You need to understand this before you can attempt to have this kind of conversation. Otherwise you're just a blind fanboy spouting BS like Sega Retro.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I'm not the one who's continuing to argue something that was never being debated in the first place.
    You have argued all along. All I did was respond to the 'mistruth' that Capcom said RE2 on Saturn was 'impossible' That was not what Capcom said. Then you come in with RAM, overlooking Capcom clearly said they did not need more RAM and that wasn't the issue, you kept on. I can only imagine the ridicule I would get from you, that despite Capcom saying they didn't more RAM and the game was utterly cancelled because of Dreamcast, if I said that wasn't the case at all and the game needed the RAM cart.




    The RAM talk started in the likes of SSM, it was pure press 'speculation'











    Do you have any hard sales data on the sale of the 4 MEG Cart? I would put to you its sales were strictly limited and no way would Capcom look to limit its number 1 game, to a tiny market of Saturn 4-Meg users
    only ever released in Japan and with a userbase already in massive decline. Sure games need a lot of RAM when in development, that's no doubt why the development kit comes with double the RAM or allowed the developer to fit more RAM.

    What works for a game like Street Fighter Alpha doesn't necessarily carry over and apply to a game like Resident Evil 2, or Tomb Raider
    Tom Raider is a bad example we all know the Saturn version was rushed out. Why did Exhumed on the PS have some environment detail cut to the Saturn version?
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 08-11-2022 at 01:20 PM.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  14. #119
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You have argued all along. All I did was respond to the 'mistruth' that Capcom said RE2 on Saturn was 'impossible' that it was not what Capcom said at all. Then you come in with RAM, overlooking Capcom clearly said they did not need more RAM and that wasn't the issue, you kept on. I can only imagine the ridicule I would get from you with despite Capcom saying they didn't more RAM and the game was utterly cancelled becasue of Dreamcast, if I said that wasn't the case at all
    And you missed the point that we were talking about THIS homebrew project, not Capcom's attempts in the 90s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Do you have any hard sales data on the sale of the 4 MEG Cart? I would put to you its sales were strictly limited and no way would Capcom look to limit its number 1 game, to a tiny market of Saturn 4-Meg users
    only ever released in Japan and with a userbase already in massive decline. Sure games need a lot of RAM when in development, that's no doubt why the development kit comes with double the RAM or allowed the developer to fit more RAM.
    We have the Famitsu sales data that shows those games sold at least a a couple 100k copies each. X-Men vs street Fighter sold over 200,000 copies, Vampire Savior another 150,000 copies, etc. So it's probably safe to assume at least ~300,000+ 4MB RAM carts were sold when you consider how common the RAM cart bundle is for those games. Considering the first Resident Evil on Saturn only sold about 150k in Japan, I don't think the lack of RAM cart would be an issue for Capcom. But again, we're not talking about Capcom, we're talking about this current homebrew project and the feasibility of porting Resident Evil 2 to the Saturn with it's lack of MDEC compression hardware and it's fractured RAM set up.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-11-2022 at 01:44 PM.

  15. #120
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    I'm just imagining TA has a full Card Catalog of all the old magazines and quotes and searches through it daily for topics such as this.

    I'll show you you're wrong, cuz...!


    He scans the page. Uploads the photo and loudly in his own home shouts to himself

    Life?!...What console is that on?

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