Quantcast

Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 456789 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 121

Thread: Final Fight CD

  1. #106
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Vancouver
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,731
    Rep Power
    105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Well I did mean CP 1 . But given the SEGA CS team made such a wonderful game engine for the MEGA CD port of FF. It's a shame SEGA didn't look to reuse it for other CP1 Mega CD ports .

    Still this is SEGA, The CS Sega Rally engine should have been used for the Manx TT and Touring Car Saturn ports and the AM#2 VC II engine for the House of the Dead Saturn port.
    Every game is different. The team that made Fight Fight CD might be better prepared to work on other beat 'em ups. But they'd still need someone to come in and teach them how to manage color and avoid dither.

    You can't just drop assets from other CPS games into the "game engine" and pump out ports of Pang, 1941 CA, Willow, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  2. #107
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,583
    Rep Power
    59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Every game is different. The team that made Fight Fight CD might be better prepared to work on other beat 'em ups. But they'd still need someone to come in and teach them how to manage color and avoid dither.

    You can't just drop assets from other CPS games into the "game engine" and pump out ports of Pang, 1941 CA, Willow, etc.
    I think back in those days all the Consumer Teams were under one Division. The consumer teams would have port , what ever they are told to do. I can't help by feel sorry the CS Team line that were told they had to port various coin ups to the Master System

    Also I don't see why the CS Team couldn't reuse their engine, for very similar games . Core Design used to share their engine for various different games on the Mega Drive and Mega CD , Ocean used to do on the Micro computers, same for Prope
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  3. #108
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    88
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I think back in those days all the Consumer Teams were under one Division. The consumer teams would have port , what ever they are told to do. I can't help by feel sorry the CS Team line that were told they had to port various coin ups to the Master System

    Also I don't see why the CS Team couldn't reuse their engine, for very similar games . Core Design used to share their engine for various different games on the Mega Drive and Mega CD , Ocean used to do on the Micro computers, same for Prope
    That's fine if the target game is using everything from an 'engine', but that's not usually how things are done on these older systems. The code base might be shared, but it's going to be hacked up and changed. Generalization of abstract code structure to handle multiple games, leads to a sacrifice in performance. I mean just think about it.. you'd have to have support for every possible thing imaginable. That would also imply that all CPS games have a CPS engine. And that's definitely not a thing haha.

    They could definitely use the previous game as a base for other similar games (beat 'em ups from CPS), but that's not exactly the same as 'engine' in the modern sense. I mean, maybe you reuse the map drawing routine? Maaaybe.. parts of the sprite routine (that's more rare)? But game physics, logic, etc are just going to be different. Unless you're making really basic cookie cutter games, or doing something like SCUMM (but that's more of a VM than a game engine).

    But yeah, the same team that handled FFCD would have been more equipped to handle other CPS beat 'em ups. But you could definitely say they'd have a base platform (code) to start with (again assuming same genre of game).

  4. #109
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,583
    Rep Power
    59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    That's fine if the target game is using everything from an 'engine', but that's not usually how things are done on these older systems. The code base might be shared, but it's going to be hacked up and changed.
    It used to happen back then, even when games shared the same tech, they'll be improvements and advancements made, like how the Mega-CD Thunder Hawk engine was improved for Battlecorps or how the Wonderdog game engine was improved for Son Of Chuck (Chuck Rock II) I sure I read in Retro Golden Axe and Altered Beast are running on the same engine, seem to remember Jungle Book on the MD running on the Aladdin engine.

    Strider and Final Fight aren't that different and the CS Team had a nice code base with Final Fight CD, that they could have looked to use for a Strider Mega-CD game. I was so jealous when NEC was looking to make a Super version of Strider for their CD system

    At a guess, I would imagine most of Capcom's CPS 1 games mostly run on the same base engine, only with slight customization, depending on the requirements of the game. I don't why SEGA CS team couldn't do the same.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  5. #110
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Vancouver
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,731
    Rep Power
    105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It used to happen back then, even when games shared the same tech, they'll be improvements and advancements made, like how the Mega-CD Thunder Hawk engine was improved for Battlecorps or how the Wonderdog game engine was improved for Son Of Chuck (Chuck Rock II) I sure I read in Retro Golden Axe and Altered Beast are running on the same engine, seem to remember Jungle Book on the MD running on the Aladdin engine.

    Strider and Final Fight aren't that different and the CS Team had a nice code base with Final Fight CD, that they could have looked to use for a Strider Mega-CD game. I was so jealous when NEC was looking to make a Super version of Strider for their CD system

    At a guess, I would imagine most of Capcom's CPS 1 games mostly run on the same base engine, only with slight customization, depending on the requirements of the game. I don't why SEGA CS team couldn't do the same.
    Strider is very different from Final Fight.

    It's multi directional scrolling. Different type of collision, more layering. Different gameplay... its a different game.

    Having a 2D engine before beginning a new game helps compared to starting from scratch with no experience. But it's nothing like mugen.
    Last edited by Black_Tiger; 01-27-2020 at 11:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  6. #111
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    88
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It used to happen back then, even when games shared the same tech, they'll be improvements and advancements made, like how the Mega-CD Thunder Hawk engine was improved for Battlecorps or how the Wonderdog game engine was improved for Son Of Chuck (Chuck Rock II) I sure I read in Retro Golden Axe and Altered Beast are running on the same engine, seem to remember Jungle Book on the MD running on the Aladdin engine.
    I mean, those are some good examples. An engine for this generation would be something like a level structure. It contains tiles and graphics, obviously, types of collision (one way pass through, two way pass through, slopes/angles, interactive buttons, etc), enemy objects associated to said map, etc. Right? Those things aren't difficult to re-write, but a unified level logic means you can reuse the same toolsets in designing said levels. That would be equivalent of an engine for this era (the minimal definition of an engine). Yeah so maybe Jungle Book and Aladdin share a lot of the same code base (engine). But aside from the animation and nice artwork, and they're pretty basic games.

    But If I change some attributes of previous game's design level engine, then it's no longer the same engine. And you'd have to re-write (upgrade) the associated toolset as well (for the designers and artists). But I would argue that using the another game's code base.. as the base and upgrading it, isn't the same as an engine.

    The whole Golden Axe and Altered Beast thing though, I've heard that too and sounds like bullshit (or mistranslated and/or simplified for non programming audience). I mean maybe if they took Golden Axe and dumbed it down for Altered Beast, I could see that. But Altered Beast came out a year earlier. The games have completely different mechanics (one is X axis, and the other X/Y axis).


    Strider and Final Fight aren't that different and the CS Team had a nice code base with Final Fight CD, that they could have looked to use for a Strider Mega-CD game. I was so jealous when NEC was looking to make a Super version of Strider for their CD system
    They're quite different actually. For one FF isn't a platformer and doesn't have slanted curved edges (or gravity physics) like Strider. Strider doesn't have the more complicated z-ordering needed by FF, nor the fighting engine needed to interact with enemies. Even two platforming games on the system could have very different engines. It's like saying the Sonic and Strider use the same engine. Imagine Cadillacs and Dinosaurs port on the MegaCD? Or any other number of beat'em ups on the CPS1 that could appear on the MegaCD. Things to consider (aka optimizations) would be colors, palettes, streaming/updating tiles, etc. On the CPS1 hardware, it's not even an issue so maybe it shares a lot of code base with other beat'em ups. But consoles are different. I wouldn't want them using the same engine, and just shoe horning another beat'em up into it. Take what they've learned from FFCD, but design the port around the limited of the system, not an engine.

    At a guess, I would imagine most of Capcom's CPS 1 games mostly run on the same base engine, only with slight customization, depending on the requirements of the game. I don't why SEGA CS team couldn't do the same.
    Even if that were true, which it isn't, the CPS1 isn't the Megadrive. The Megadrive inherently has a lot more limitations to worry about than arcade hardware in the early 90s. That means to get the most out of the system, you're constantly optimizing. Sharing engines isn't optimizing. It's the opposite of that; a shared engine is to maximize minimal production time as possible. It's different than the 3D era consoles.

    Refactoring exiting game code base is fine, I guess, but using an engine IMO for this era translates to; maximize efficiently and production time, minimize game design and optimization.

  7. #112
    Outrunner
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    530
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    This is a really interesting topic. But I really want to know insights more from real developers from that era. For example, many games shared same audio drivers, so probably they share many other elements. Of course you need to tweak the "engine" for your needs, but intelligent reuse of code can help to make a game from a totally unexpected engine. For example, is Story of Thor sharing Streets of Rage code? For sure Alien Soldier from Gunstar Heroes.

  8. #113
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,583
    Rep Power
    59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Strider is very different from Final Fight..
    It scrolls left to right, feature similar-sized characters and a similar number of characters on screen. It's not that different, quite like a lot of Capcom CPS scrolling games or even SEGA's for that matter.
    I would imagine ESWAT, Alien Storm, Shadow Dancer, Altered Beast on the Mega Drive share much of the code base TBH.
    Final Fight CD was brilliant.

    SEGA had already made fantastic ports of Strider and Ghost N Ghouls on the Mega Drive. It would have been nice to have to see SEGA gone back them and make super CD versions like NEC looked to do for the CD-Rom2.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  9. #114
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,583
    Rep Power
    59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post

    Even if that were true, which it isn't, the CPS1 isn't the Megadrive. The Megadrive inherently has a lot more limitations to worry about than arcade hardware in the early 90s. That means to get the most out of the system, you're constantly optimizing. Sharing engines isn't optimizing. It's the opposite of that; a shared engine is to maximize minimal production time as possible. It's different than the 3D era consoles.
    The Mega Drive wasn't system 16, it wasn't the Y board but the SEGA CS Team were still expected to handle the ports, never mind their Master system ports. . We already had brilliant ports of CPS games on the Mega Drive with Ghouls N Ghosts, MERCS (an overlooked classic MD port), Strider, Forgotten Worlds from SEGA CS Team. Those were done early in the system life and with the issues of RAM space.

    Would have been nice to have seen SEGA go back to Strider and Ghost N Ghouls for the Mega CD; they could have come in with more frames of animation, all the Arcade's speech and introductions, Arcade perfect sound effects and remixed music and still thanks to the CD it would be cheaper than the Cart versions

    In just the same way Earthworm Jim and Pitfall on the Mega CD were the definitive versions. SEGA Japan just should have done so much more on the Mega CD, for the most part, they were so lame on the system.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  10. #115
    The Gaming Gangsta Master of Shinobi profholt82's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,923
    Rep Power
    74

    Default

    As good as the soundtrack is on the original Final Fight cabinet, I think the Sega CD soundtrack is even better. One of my favorite video game soundtracks for sure.

  11. #116
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    88
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It scrolls left to right, feature similar-sized characters and a similar number of characters on screen. It's not that different, quite like a lot of Capcom CPS scrolling games or even SEGA's for that matter.
    I would imagine ESWAT, Alien Storm, Shadow Dancer, Altered Beast on the Mega Drive share much of the code base TBH.
    Final Fight CD was brilliant.

    SEGA had already made fantastic ports of Strider and Ghost N Ghouls on the Mega Drive. It would have been nice to have to see SEGA gone back them and make super CD versions like NEC looked to do for the CD-Rom2.
    Yeah but things in common are so basic. And an engine is more than just throwing up some sprites and scrolling a map. It's a lot more than just a map routine. Large sprites are just meta-sprites. So even if you re-used a sprite meta routine, it's so simple to re-write if needed but that if you did reuse it - it doesn't mean anything. I mean if it was something really complex like an algorithm that managed 'heap' allocation in vram for sprite objects to be loaded, then I guess. But honestly something like that is tailored specific games. And assuming they even do that, it's much easier (and faster) to limit design in which fixed heuristics are known - i.e. you know what objects are going to be used for that section of the level, etc.

    But yeah, the games are a lot different. Final Fight has Z-ordering, Strider does not. FF has a Z depth in which the character walks into the background. FF has specific AI to the enemies, it has a more complex damage system (moves can cancel out other moves). If you're stripping down the differences to just; both scroll and have large characters... that's not an engine. And for the sake of argument to say those simple parts which controlled those attributes happened to be shared, it has no significance. I might not have released much to the public, but I've written enough game engines and hacked enough games on these old systems to say that with confidence.

    Agreed! Strider was jaw-droppingly accurate. GnG was pretty damn close too. GnG MD's music IMO is better than the arcade (arcade ym2151 tended to be too sharp and steal-y for my liking).

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The Mega Drive wasn't system 16, it wasn't the Y board but the SEGA CS Team were still expected to handle the ports, never mind their Master system ports. . We already had brilliant ports of CPS games on the Mega Drive with Ghouls N Ghosts, MERCS (an overlooked classic MD port), Strider, Forgotten Worlds from SEGA CS Team. Those were done early in the system life and with the issues of RAM space.

    Would have been nice to have seen SEGA go back to Strider and Ghost N Ghouls for the Mega CD; they could have come in with more frames of animation, all the Arcade's speech and introductions, Arcade perfect sound effects and remixed music and still thanks to the CD it would be cheaper than the Cart versions

    In just the same way Earthworm Jim and Pitfall on the Mega CD were the definitive versions. SEGA Japan just should have done so much more on the Mega CD, for the most part, they were so lame on the system.
    Sure. But I'm pretty sure Sega wanted the price of the addon to be justified. Sadly, stuff like FMV and such are what stood out the most. You and I might have been hyped about high quality arcade polished ports (and I definitely would have bought upgraded versions of Strider and GnG), but that doesn't mean it would have the same mass appeal. At least in the US. When FFCD came out in NA, I got it the day it came out. It was amazing. But it definitely wasn't flying off the shelves. To a related note, when TF4 came out in the US, I got it the first day and it was only $30 brand new! Games were normally 55-60USD. My point being, just because games are great doesn't mean they're sales pushers. But I do remember when FFCD came out, I was like finally.. SegaCD is going to be a normal CD addon like it should have been (I wasn't impressed or fond of the 3D games from EU on it either though, or EU developed games in general.. I didn't know they were EU developed games back then, only that I didn't like the style. I disliked style/feel of Wonder Dog, Wolfchild, Chuck Rock, etc. )

  12. #117
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,583
    Rep Power
    59

    Default

    Tbh, I think by the time of Final Fight CD, the FMV fad was on its way out, not that SEGA Japan was either than big on FMV in the 1st place. SOJ IMO should have looked to port it's scaler coin ups to the Mega CD and improved versions of the likes of Strider, Ghouls N Ghosts.

    Don't get your issue over the 3D effect from Europe . It's hard to think of many better looking 3D Mega CD games, than those from CORE.

    Also very miffed as to why SEGA didn't look to make Moonwalker for the Mega CD with some real MJ CD-DA tracks or have the Sims make a sequel to Master Of Darkness on the Mega CD as it's rival the Castlevaina on the Due .
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  13. #118
    Master of Shinobi Mega Drive Bowlsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,133
    Rep Power
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Tbh, I think by the time of Final Fight CD, the FMV fad was on its way out, not that SEGA Japan was either than big on FMV in the 1st place. SOJ IMO should have looked to port it's scaler coin ups to the Mega CD and improved versions of the likes of Strider, Ghouls N Ghosts.

    Don't get your issue over the 3D effect from Europe . It's hard to think of many better looking 3D Mega CD games, than those from CORE.

    Also very miffed as to why SEGA didn't look to make Moonwalker for the Mega CD with some real MJ CD-DA tracks or have the Sims make a sequel to Master Of Darkness on the Mega CD as it's rival the Castlevaina on the Due .
    Hell yeah! A Mega CD port of Moonwalker, with Jacko's actual songs in CD quality, would have been so fucking cool! Hell even a shitty Make My Video featuring MJ would have been awesome.

  14. #119
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,583
    Rep Power
    59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    Hell yeah! A Mega CD port of Moonwalker, with Jacko's actual songs in CD quality, would have been so fucking cool! Hell even a shitty Make My Video featuring MJ would have been awesome.
    Yeah, would have been so ace to have the real music in there, along with more animation and MJ's speech samples

    Even stuff like Golden Axe on the Mega CD was a waste. I dug that SEGA looked to bring in the actual Arcade music and feature better sample speech, but why wasn't the ASIC chip used for the magic effects?
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  15. #120
    Outrunner
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    574
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    Yeah but things in common are so basic.
    With all due respect to the awesome job done by the developer, I think another point is that Final Fight was really a game somewhat tailored to some of the MCD strengths. The characters use minimal animation, there's really not too many different characters (most are simple pallette or head swaps). The backgrounds are completely unanimated. There's nary a sound effect that isn't a sample, all of which are rough sounding low quality samples to start with.

    Add all those factors together and you've got plenty of RAM to work with for an accurate arcade port. If a Street Fighter II port was attempted it would be like every other fighter on the system; lots of load screens and huge tradeoffs between animation or sound effects.

    Additionally just look at the sub-par Sengoku port. Granted the team behind that was not as talented as the FFCD team, but the game has massive animation cuts, multiple mid-level load times... Hell it doesn't even support 2 players. It could probably have been a more accurate port if the developers were more skilled than what they were, but even the best MCD team can't fit 10 gallons of shit in a 5 gallon bucket.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •